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Topic:
*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/4 12:04pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I think the issue of the younglings HAD to be dealt with. We saw them on screen in AOTC. Once it became clear that the Empire hunted down and slaughtered the Jedi, the question comes up... what happened to the younglings? Were they killed too? Were they spared and set loose? It needed to be addressed somehow in ROTS and I think it was handled perfectly. The failure in believing that Anakin would do such a thing lies more in the turn itself, not in the fact that he killed younglings.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/4 12:50pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 12:50pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Strilo posted:
Do you have proof about the test audience thing?
George Lucas:
About the test Screening:
"We'd earlier had a rough-cut screening for ILM to test the film, and some of the people had strong opinions about things that were contrary to the way I was going. Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, 'You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.' They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy"
He went on to explain the Greed:
"The core issue, ultimately, is greed, possessiveness - the inability to let go. Not only to hold on to material things, which is greed, but to hold on to life, to the people you love - to not accept the reality of life's passages and changes, which is to say things come, things go. Everything changes. Anakin becomes emotionally attached to things, his mother, his wife. That's why he falls - because he does not have the ability to let go"
From the commentary, he explains what he was trying to convey:
"He didn't realise Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he's realising that with Mace dead he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive."
---------
So this is the part I was referring to - if Anakin didn't mean for it to happen, he didn't really cross over the line - but he thinks he has and succumbs. But as the viewing audience, we don't get any of this from watching the movie.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
3/4 1:05pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Strilo posted:
I think the issue of the younglings HAD to be dealt with. We saw them on screen in AOTC. Once it became clear that the Empire hunted down and slaughtered the Jedi, the question comes up... what happened to the younglings? Were they killed too? Were they spared and set loose? It needed to be addressed somehow in ROTS and I think it was handled perfectly. The failure in believing that Anakin would do such a thing lies more in the turn itself, not in the fact that he killed younglings.
I agree, if that had not been included in the script, it would have been one big loose end. Personally I felt the killing of the younglings solidified Anakin's turn, leaving no doubt in the audiences' mind that Anakin had become Darth Vader.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/4 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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They didn't tell him it was poorly executed. They said they wanted there to be betrayal, someone killed his best friend or his mom or something. They expected a different direction from the story itself, not the way the script was written and shot and edited.
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#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/4 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 2:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Strilo, what made you feel I was speaking about the actual scene shooting and editing of the film? All I have spoken about is the content of the storyline in my posts. By 'executed' I meant how it was finally done in the movie from a storyline standpoint. The test audience wanted the storyline to go differently - as did I. I don't care whether he used a side shot or a top shot or edited Palaptine's white sock out of the movie...?
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/4 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 3:19pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Strilo
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
Strilo, what made you feel I was speaking about the actual scene shooting and editing of the film? All I have spoken about is the content of the storyline in my posts. By 'executed' I meant how it was finally done in the movie from a storyline standpoint. The test audience wanted the storyline to go differently - as did I. I don't care whether he used a side shot or a top shot or edited Palaptine's white sock out of the movie...?
Execution refers to how something is carried out. The story is executed through the screenplay and the production and the post-production. It's a natural assumption that you were referring to one of these things. I also think you are grossly misinterpreting what Lucas was referring to in those quotes. It's like how some people in the audience wanted Anakin to be older in TPM because they wanted it that way and expected it to be that way. He's saying some people in the screening audience wanted Anakin to be betrayed directly and tangibly by someone close to him because they wanted it that way and expected it to be that way. But to have Anakin directly betrayed by someone close to him like that would have completely altered the message that Lucas wanted to convey. That alters the very foundation of the story he is telling and THAT is his story to tell, not a test audience's. I think that is what he's trying to say.
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#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
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"Corrupt, you corrupt and bring corruption to all that you touch.
Hold, you’ll behold and beholden for all that you’ve done."
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/4 3:24pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 3:27pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I agree...in fact I am not exactly sure what you are disagreeing with me on. I am certainly not saying the things you put in my mouth - so you can discount those. Apart from that, we seem to be saying the same thing. I don't agree with the exact things the audience came up with, I only agree with them on this one point:
"Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad"
So all of the other stuff you are saying I am saying - well I am not saying that. If you think I mis-interpreted something, you would have to point it out directly, because I have no idea what you are talking about. You misunderstood what I meant by executed, but hopefully now you understand.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/4 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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No it sounds to me like you are saying you simply want the reasons for Anakin's turn as George outlines them to be clearer IN THE FILM. As it stands now, you feel they are not clear. The audience in that testing wanted an altogether different reason.
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#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/4 4:05pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 7:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LemmingLord
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Strilo posted:
I think the issue of the younglings HAD to be dealt with. We saw them on screen in AOTC. Once it became clear that the Empire hunted down and slaughtered the Jedi, the question comes up... what happened to the younglings? Were they killed too? Were they spared and set loose? It needed to be addressed somehow in ROTS and I think it was handled perfectly. The failure in believing that Anakin would do such a thing lies more in the turn itself, not in the fact that he killed younglings.
I'd rather the question came up "what ahppened to the younglings" then to have Anakin kill them thirty seconds after joining the bad guys. How about a scene where he takes the troops in - but instead of killing them all, the troops take the younglings to put them on trucks like the Nazi's did with the jews? There could still be a scene with Anakin killing anyone who resists if necsesary. Could even have Anakin going with the Empereror's spiel, "by order of the emperor and the imperial senate and due to recent plots against the government by this organization, So-and-so, so and so, so-and-so will come with me to be detained for questioning.." Anakin can then arrest them if they are willing or kill them if they are not.. Either way, it leaves younglings in the hands of the empire. I think putting them on trucks and sending them away is much more powerful and more in keeping with the kind of betrayal I'd like to see.
To debate the main point, I don't think the younglings had to be dealt with at all. The OT says that Vader helped to hunt down the jedi knights. Besides the fact that the younglings are NOT jedi nor jedi knights, Vader can HELP without killing everyone with his bare hands (bare lightsabers?).
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/4 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I don't put a grain of salt into any of that mumbo-jumbo, damage-control, or 'spin' that Lucas said about the test audience. The hacks to Anakin's turn came LATER in the game, and after his homies had taken a look. They didn't like the fact that Anakin stood there and let Palpatine cut down his former running mates. So Lucas changed it. And the turn sucked ever since.
And I would know about the changes since I was the one who spoiled the 3SA on Mace's dialogue. I looked, but my message/post history doesn't go back that far. I think I titled the thread, Mace vs Anakin: "Yes I can. I have to." Or something close to it.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
3/4 4:54pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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It's an aside, but I think the slaughter of the younglings is one of the most powerful things anywhere in Star Wars and was very much needed. It was a necessary thing for Lucas to do and he showed it exactly how he needed to. I was worried that he would not have the balls to show even what he did. It also works for me because I see Anakin's turn starting in AOTC when he slaughters the sandpeople. It's not one minute he's fine with the Jedi and the next he's killing babies. It's three years of struggle with the dark side before it consumes him.
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#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
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Hold, you’ll behold and beholden for all that you’ve done."
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/4 5:50pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I have mixed feelings about a lot of this. It sure did seem that once Anakin turned... he plunged right into full-blown "villainy" awfully fast. There was no dipping his toes in at the water's edge... no slow progression down that path. One minute he was "saving" Sidious - an act that we COULD argue was done impulsively, and even with half-good intentions (if you want to believe that what really motivated Anakin was an aversion to seeing a helpless prisoner killed, versus selfish need - although I honestly think it was the latter) - and the next he was killing his former colleagues AND the younglings.
On the other hand... I have to say that it WORKED for me, on an emotional level, when I saw the movie the first time (and every time since). The "Jedi purge" is nasty, brutal, ugly, sad business, and Anakin's fall is hard and brutal and absolutely "wonderfully' uncool. I am not eloquent enough to explain it...but lets face it, up to a CERTAIN POINT, lots of bad guys, especially in fantasy/sci fi...are "cool". Maul, Boba Fett, etc, etc... But with Anakin's fall, Lucas showed completely unglamorized, in your face, ugly, nasty, "real" evil. You can't watch that youngling flinch when Anakin lights his saber and feel anything besides sadness and disgust. You can't watch that Padawan cut down trying to help Organa and feel anything but sadness and anger (yes, realize that was the clonetroopers doing, not Anakin's...just saying it was of a kind!). I thnk the story needed Anakin to make a near irrevocable hard TURN, and one that left the audience feeling sad and sick.
Lastly... I think folks are being a bit hard on ObiWan here... yes, he is a Jedi, one of the best, which would imply a certain emotional control and stoicism, a desire to always seek the peaceful solution... but... come on guys, you DO have to factor in what ObiWan has just seen and experienced. The Jedi are being slaughtered. Not just killed in battle - betrayed and murdered and slaughtered. The younglings were butchered by a LIGHTSABER... wielded by the Jedi HE trained! His former Padawan, his "friend", has betrayed the Jedi, betrayed the galaxy, helped a Sith Lord overthrow the government, and has PERSONALLY killed a lot of ObiWan's colleagues. He has just Force-strangled his pregnant wife. Might the scene have worked, might it have been even sadder, if ObiWan had seemed a bit less ready to go at it with Anakin? Maybe. But at that point, given all that had transpired...? I am inclined to cut ObiWan some slack...*S*
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/4 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/4 7:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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The whole slaughter of the younglings was defeated to me when they re-showed them laying on the ground dead, but their bodies totally whole and fine looking, no arms or legs missing - not even a saber hole through the chest. How did Anakin kill them? Not like he killed the separtists, slashing them to bits. It looked to me like he had to have done it by stopping their hearts or something. While death is death and it was a slaughter for sure, perhaps the fact that he did not cut them to pieces was supposed to show that he struggled with the task as he had just turned dark. Same when he stood crying after killing the separtists - a recognition of what he'd become and that he knew it was wrong. Still, the turning could have been clearer to me.
Strilo, yeah, I have no idea if anyone in the audience thought like me. That wasn't my point. My point was that George had negative feedback pertaining to the way Anakin turned as people had a hard time with assimilating it as shown. So did I. That was all I was trying to say.
Finally, I cut Obi-Wan all the slack in the world, just not George. He shouldn't have had Obi-Wan draw first if it was not his intention to make it seem that Obi-Wan gave up on Anakin and decided to kill him. Obi-Wan made it "Conversation over" and instead of taking the time to speak on a non-galatic level, he declared Anakin sounded like a Sith because he was dealing in absolutes - I ask you, WHEN didn't Anakin deal in absolutes during his life? Granted, Anakin had just slaughtered Jedi and the younglings - but AFTER seeing that, Obi-Wan declared he still couldn't kill Anakin - as if on some level he still understood him or something. But his speech at Mustafar reflected none of that and so it just came across as precipitous to me for him to jerk out his saber and start things at the point he did.
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"You will try"
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/4 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Yes his slide began when he butchered the camp, and it was nicely done. But most of his character progression took place in CW, not the movies. So in III, I felt let down.
Having Vader kill the kiddies was overkill, it was too contrived in such a short turn of events.
Now if the turn hadn't been altered, and he stood there while the Jedi got mowed down, then I can see him marching on the Temple and whacking everyone in site. He would have been in awe of what Sidious just pulled-off, and he would have coveted power even more... then the youngling slaughter would have felt more in line. See, what kills it for me is the fact that he was sobbing on his knees about his prego-wife, and 4 minutes later he's drawing his blade on some kids. It is too rushed, too forced upon us... his turn. The five second holo-recording vs drallig and co. doesn't do the movie any favors, especially after watching him 'storm' the Temple...
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/4 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Exactly...I can only agree.
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"You will try"
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