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Topic:
*OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/5 5:26am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/5 5:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Eternity85
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I agree. The way everything played out, i just didnt feel that i was ready for Anakin slaughtering the younglings. I say to myself, no he couldnt have done that, he must have ordered the clones to do it. For me, as i think it was for most SW fans, Anakins turn was one of the most important scenes in the saga. But the first time i saw it, i was very dissapointed.
If Anakin butchered the younglings he would have to be completely consumed by darkness, and he couldnt have been aware of who he was or what he was doing. But it seems to me that it was way to early for him to have fallen that far. BTW, Palpatines line when he tells Anakin that he have to wipe out the jedi and the trade federation, because then he will be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme. Its just silly, it makes Anakin look like a mindless monster. its like, "Ok here is a list of people you need to kill, after you have done this you will be able to save your wife". Ok great, no problem, i love you palps, you are such a good friend.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/5 6:15am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Not to mention the fact that he's already faced Dooku a minimum of two times.
He knew Dooku the Sith Lord wasn't stronger than Anakin was as a Jedi.
the tuen was poorly planned, poorly executed...
poor OT Vader.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/6 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Not to mention the fact that he's already faced Dooku a minimum of two times.
He knew Dooku the Sith Lord wasn't stronger than Anakin was as a Jedi.
the tuen was poorly planned, poorly executed...
poor OT Vader.
Well if I correctly understand what people mean by "executed" now, then I would say that the scenes were 'pretty' - lol. I thought the colors and effects used were great - it was dark, riviting and the lighting was perfect. The face shot of Anakin was perfect. However, everything coming out of the mouths of the actors was "off" to me. So I agree with the poorly planned and the script required vast improvement. And finally I agree, poor OT Vader...
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"You will try"
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/6 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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OT-Vader would have Force-choked his own sobbing, unsuited-ass right there if he could flow-walk, or whatever its called.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
3/7 9:22am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Yes his slide began when he butchered the camp, and it was nicely done. But most of his character progression took place in CW, not the movies. So in III, I felt let down.
Having Vader kill the kiddies was overkill, it was too contrived in such a short turn of events.
Now if the turn hadn't been altered, and he stood there while the Jedi got mowed down, then I can see him marching on the Temple and whacking everyone in site. He would have been in awe of what Sidious just pulled-off, and he would have coveted power even more... then the youngling slaughter would have felt more in line. See, what kills it for me is the fact that he was sobbing on his knees about his prego-wife, and 4 minutes later he's drawing his blade on some kids. It is too rushed, too forced upon us... his turn. The five second holo-recording vs drallig and co. doesn't do the movie any favors, especially after watching him 'storm' the Temple...
But Anakin has already past the point of no return by cutting off Mace's hand. He knows he isn't powerful enough to kill Sidious (which Sid himself has said to Yoda) and if he didn't help him, any hopes of saving Padme will die along with her...or so he thinks. Her life is being held hostage by Sidious's fake promise of having the power to save her so Anakin had no other option than to swear loyalty to Sidious. Another thing, Obi-wan mentioned in ANH that Anakin "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi" but he can't do that if he's just standing around doing nothing while the clone troops do all the work. Sidious would want Anakin to do something that would prove to him that Anakin has indeed embraced the Dark Side and that is where the Younglings slaughter and that holo-recording attack come in.
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Darkstar51
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
3/10 8:17am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I've been bothered by Anakin's fall ever since the movie came out. I watched it again this weekend, and I think it would have worked much better like this:
Have Palpatine reveal himself a little sooner to Anakin. Palps actually makes some good arguments about the Jedi being too narrow-minded, and that if you want to understand something, you should look at ALL sides of it. Finally, his assertion that the dark side could help save Padme is the most compelling argument for Anakin. And all the while, even when Anakin draws his saber, Palpatine is still playing the friend card. He's still smiling and seems very understanding of Anakin's feelings.
If Anakin had turned right then -- if he had not gone to the Council, but thought about this revelation for awhile, and then turned, I think it would have been more believable. Because at first, he could simply go on as though nothing had happened. He could begin learning Palpatine's teachings, but not show his hand to the Jedi. He might even tell himself that he was still doing the right thing, because it would help Padme -- that he would only learn just enough to save her, and then confront Palpatine about being Sith. Then, at some point later in the movie, perhaps after Obi-Wan had left to find Grievous, some of the Jedi could find out about Anakin's fall.
Anakin would view their confrontation as being judgmental (and in the case of Mace Windu and some others, it probably would be). He becomes defensive and angry, he and Palps are forced to kill several of the masters (maybe the same 4 Palps faces in the movie), and then he fully embraces the dark side because he feels like he's come too far to do anything else. Combine that feeling with his anger at the Jedi for the way they've reacted to him, and he might just be ready to attack the temple, and possibly even kill younglings.
I don't know, there are probably better ways to do it than that, and I guess it really doesn't matter anyway since it's too late now. But I think something along those lines that shows a slow descent into the dark side would have made more sense.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/10 11:32am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Yes, a little more gradual of a seduction like that would have felt less rushed to me also.
I wonder if there's something that could have been done with Anakin's dreams... If Sideious could have offered Anakin some Sithly advice about lucid dreaming... and about allowing himself to be angry in his dreams... to overcome that which kills Padame.... Then he could feel his power rise...and maybe in his dreams he could be saving Padame... but when he doesn't rage in his dreams...when he doesn't let the dark side flow through him in the dreams....Padame dies...
Also - what if the chancellor lets himself get arrested early in the film.. He has his playing card in Anakin... Anakin can actually go to the temple to help him escape! Man... THAT would have been great.
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LemmingLord
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/10 12:27pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/10 12:39pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Even though it might have been more believable to the viewer to have Anakin turn slower, it would have defeated George's point. He wanted Anakin shown to be attempting to be the best Jedi he could be (which we all know he was failing). He didn't want it to appear that Anakin had accepted evil in his heart and become completely sullied because then ROTJ makes no sense - there has to still be good in him. The rapid events (Mace's death) which Anakin hadn't expected, make him feel suddenly doomed. Things went in a direction he had totally not expected and in Anakin's mind, events conspired that left only one viable road open to him. If he returned to the Jedi at that point - they would condemn him (in his mind) and he'd get no where AND lose Padme. If he turned to Palpatine's service, he is going to be made a God (power) and save Padme - and anyone else in the future he wished to save - he'd never have to give up another person he was attached to again (greed). He chose the latter and he knew it was wrong. The fact is, if he had days to think about it with advice from say Obi-Wan, he would not have likely chosen Sidious - but as it was, he was alone, felt both sides were corrupt and elected the choice that was most beneficial to himself - the selfish choice.
It is easier in the long run to explain a split second god awful decision that firmly sets a person on the wrong path - especially when they have struggled in the past with the issue - as a "mistake" by a good person - than it is to explain how Anakin sat down and thought everything through, fooled the Jedi, chose Palpatine over time and welcomed the dark force completely into his heart - as a "mistake" by a good person. That latter scenario sounds like a person who made a perfectly "sound choice" and is simply "bad" inside.
That is why the whole turning thing had to be quick. I am of the opinion that it should have been quick, but that there should have been more conversation involved to help the audience understand everything going on in Anakin's head. It was all in the movie, but broken up and at the moment he turned it was hard for people to pull it altogether, imo.
Remember the whole point of ROTS was not just to show Anakin's downfall, but to show how it was possible that he resurfaced in ROTJ and destroyed Palpatine as a Jedi Knight. This is very important to the story because we know as Vader, he wished to overthrow Lord Sidious as a Sith - it was the Sith way. And it was evident in the movie that Sidious and Vader were not hand in glove (Vader's disagreement's with him, his declaration that he and Luke would kill Sidious and Rule, etc.) So George had to show that Anakin was capable of throwing off all of the "evil" in a moment by making it extremely obvious in ROTS that Anakin started the whole downfall with conflict in his heart that would last a lifetime. He couldn't do that by showing Anakin faithfully, purposefully and dedicatedly turning slowly to the darkside and accepting it's tenants because of his true and unshakeable belief in them. I mean how believeable would it have sounded at that point for Anakin to say "what have I done?" We would all say that he should have thought about that during the hours, days, weeks or years he was turing to the dark side.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
3/10 4:00pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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The PT never suggested to me that Anakin was trying in the slightest to be a good Jedi.. While he does show regret for failing to be the jedi he thinks he should be, he doesn't show any sign of changing his behavior does he?
As plausible as making a split-decision mistake (such as attacking Mace in defense of the Chancellor) can be at ruining the rest of a person's life, it doesn't, in my mind, show a seduction.. I do not see Anakin becoming ENAMORED with the dark side or by Sideous. I wanted E3 to live up the promise of Obi Wan, "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force.." As it is, he is more blackmailed by the dark side of the force. Broadsided by the dark side of the force?
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LemmingLord
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/10 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/10 6:08pm (6 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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You said the PT never suggested that Anakin was trying in the slightest to be a good Jedi - and yet then you say he shows regret for failing - what more do you want? Obviously if he felt he was failing, he was trying to do the right thing. He was a fantastic Jedi at times - that was the council's problem. If he was not trying to be a good Jedi, he would have given into his anger ALL the time and gotten kicked out of the Order, certainly not made a Knight. But as it was, he was a great Jedi and at times a great failure of a Jedi, leaving them in doubt.
You may have wished to see Anakin become enaormed by the dark side, but the fact is, he never did, not completely anyway. Obi-Wan said that Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force - not that he was enamored or completely taken over by it. Your understanding of that statement will depend on what was meant by "seduced"; it seems like you mean seduction can only occur slowly - but it can happen fast. Obi-Wan DID say that "he's an evil twisted being, more machine than man" and felt there was no good in Vader (Anakin). Obi-Wan was wrong. It sounds like you want the whole script re-written  . You can't have it both ways; either he was completely into the dark force and went into it whole-heartedly without remorse, or he didn't. George opted for the second because he didn't want him to be a whole-hearted, evil Sith like Palpatine, he wanted him to be the ultimate Jedi Knight hero.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Padawan_of_Palpatine
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
3/10 6:18pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I can completely understand why some feel that the turn was "ineffective", or that it should have taken place over a longer period of time. However, I personally enjoy the way it went. To me, this was the best possible way for it to go down. Before the prequels, I always envisioned this war hardened, mature Anakin. A Jedi that had "been around the block" a few times, but still young at heart and spirit. A Jedi that would have been shown the keys to power and decided to go that way for INSERT REASON HERE. I never in a million years thought that it would deal with his fear of loss and attachment to loved ones.
Because of this, it made me look at Vader in a new light. It caused me to look beyond what was under the mask. It made me wonder what was going on inside the head inside the mask. I always say that Anakin did TERRIBLE things. Absolutely awful. Things that I can "sit here" and say I would never do. He was tricked in ways that I swear would never happen to me. But...and this is where I end up disagreeing with my friends....I can see where someone with less information than I have as a viewer could potentially make bad decisions. I can remember making decisions at a split second that on look back, I wonder what I was thinking. I have seen people walk in on a cheating spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend. I have seen people with opportunities to steal when things were bad. I've been around people that think and say things that make you wonder. Point is, everyone is wired differently. We all know that one person who no one seems to get. That one person that you can never agree with. You think to yourself, "How can this person think Kobe is the best. Lebron is the real man". (But that is because Kobe IS the man, but that's neither here nor there  )
Funny thing is, I always wanted Vader to remain ultra cool and ultra cold hearted. I ended up loving that he became a whine first ask questions later young man that had emotional issues. For me, it made the entire story that much better.
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Darkstar51
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
3/11 8:10am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Yeah, I think those are great points. And I definitely think it works the way it is (although I agree that more explanation of what was going on in his head would have been nice). But at the same time, I don't necessarily think that a slower descent would have been contradictory to the original trilogy. He could still have had a spark of goodness inside him that would have grown throughout the years as he saw more and more what Palpatine really was.
I don't know if you guys read any of the Republic comics, but I like the way they handled Quinlan Vos's character in those. He was supposed to infiltrate Count Dooku's organization, and was forced to wear the guise of being under the dark side. But the ironic thing was that he really was slowly turning to the darkside, without even realizing it. He kept telling himself that it was only for show, that he was fooling them all. But for awhile, the only one he was fooling was himself. Of course, he eventually turned back to the light, because there had been good in him all along.
But I could have seen Anakin going down a similar path. He could have told himself that learning from Palpatine was for the "greater good" since he could save the ones he loved. Actually, he does something similar in the movie when he buys Palpatine's lies about "restoring peace" to the galaxy.
I think I would have enjoyed it better to see a more gradual seduction, as LemmingLord mentioned. But at the same time, I do see how it works this way. I don't think it flowed as well, but I can understand why GL went this way with it.
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Darkstar51
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
3/11 8:16am
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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I'll say one more thing too. I thought that Anakin would be darker throughout the entire movie. But I was pleasantly surprised with the way he and Obi-Wan really seemed to love each other and get along. I liked how Anakin continued to try to do the right thing all the way up to his fall. In some ways, he seemed more "Jedi-like" than many of the other characters in the movie, especially in that moment with Palpatine and Windu.
Like I said, I still think a slower progression would have flowed better, but I really enjoyed the way they had him trying to do the right thing through most of the movie. And after his fall, certain scenes really did a great job showing his anguish.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
- Date Edited:
3/11 12:35pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Yeah I liked Quinlan Vos's story - but that was different because he set out to fool everyone and was supposedly still a Jedi. He may have gotten sucked in by the dark side, but that is kind of EU lore because George doesn't really have people sucked to the dark side against their will in the movies. Anakin chose it (like Dooku) - but he did it on the spur of the moment. He could have changed the whole story and made it more like Quinlan's, but that wouldn't have really worked because Quinlin was struggling against it for the most part, the entire time - whereas it would have been kind of weird for Darth Vader to do the things he did and have been struggling in the same way for 23 years - Sidious would have noticed and he wouldn't have gone for that. Anakin convinced himself the Sith way was the right way - Vos never went that far and Vos wasn't force choking generals every 5 minutes (lol). Even if you mean that he would have just like that until his final fall, I think it would have still make Anakin's choice too solid - to based in an actual desire for the dark side based on having given himself over too it, seen it was what he wanted and embraced it. It would be like he was actually surrendering all of the good inside of him to the dark side. I think that is why George didn't play it that way.
As it went, Anakin walked into it seduced by the idea that it would give him the power to save Padme, that is, redefine the parameters of life itself. Anakin was greedy like that; he became attached and did not wish to let go of anything. Padme was just the beginning - for Anakin, it meant he never had to give anything up again as he had his mother and Qui-Gon.
As an aside, I heard GL told the writers not to kill Vos which has some believing he may make an appearance in the Animated Series. That would be wicked, I hope it happens.
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"You will try"
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Darkstar51
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: *OFFICIAL THREAD* Anakin's Turn to the Darkside.
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Yeah, I'm hoping he'll show up in the animated series, and maybe even the live-action one next year. He's a cool character...
And back to Anakin's fall, I like the arguments you've made. If nothing else, those scenes won't seem quite so jumpy to me as they did before.
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