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Author	Topic: Doctor Who
BigBossNass1138 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/2 4:49am Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/2 4:55am (1 edits total) Edited By: BigBossNass1138
	(no message) -----signature----- "A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." -Burt Bacharach http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrneutron http://twitter.com/timbo1138 (Yes, I'm trying it again...)
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BigBossNass1138 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/2 4:50am Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/2 4:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: BigBossNass1138
	(no message) -----signature----- "A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." -Burt Bacharach http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrneutron http://twitter.com/timbo1138 (Yes, I'm trying it again...)
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/2 7:58pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	I've had similar troubles in the past, and strangely, I think the cause was an overuse of spoiler text. If you used the highlight tag in that post, try limiting it to a single block. -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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BigBossNass1138 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/3 2:00pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/3 2:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BigBossNass1138
	It WAS a single block. By nature, it's a rather spoiler-filled post. Anyway, let's try it again... Bah, now you guys are making me feel like a stick-in-the-mud and that I need to defend myself from your stern disapproval. But I'll give it a bash, because to me this episode is just like The Doctor's Daughter: a good idea (or in this case a great many good ideas) that is never given the opportunity to stretch its legs and actually engage as a plot. So let's break it down. The real problem I had with this episode is that it's just too crammed full of, well, stuff. It has the return of the good ol' Daleks. It has the returning old series staple villain, Davros. It has the returning companion, Martha. It has the second returning companion, Rose. It has UNIT. It has the crossover, Torchwood. It has the second crossover, Sarah Jane, who is also the third returning companion. It has the FOURTH returning companion, Jack. It has the reveal of the Shadow Proclamation. It has the culmination of the season arc. It has Harriet Jones. It has a god damn regeneration, for crying out loud. It's too much. None of those plot threads actually gets any sort of development. The Daleks lack menace and motivation. Davros is criminally underused. So are Martha and UNIT. If you haven't watched Torchwood and The Sarah Jane Adventures you've got no idea in the slightest of who any of these people are or why you should care about them. And let's not even get started on Rose. Actually no, let's. Rose. This is The Rose Episode. This is the big, emotional Event Episode. We know that because we're basically told so, told we're supposed to be a) shocked, b) left in awe, and c) overjoyed to see Rose back. But Rose doesn't do anything. She shows up, stands around holding a big gun, shoots a Dalek, then spends the rest of her brief screen time pouting because the Doctor's talking to Martha and not her. How is the episode about her, apart from on paper? She barely qualifies for McGuffin status at this rate. We don't learn a single thing about her return. No hints as to what's been happening in the other universe, or why she's been hopping around the place. Her characterisation feels very flat, though perhaps this is just because we don't see any of her. And do you know what? By the time we get to the scene where she's running towards the Doctor, which should be the emotional climax of the episode, I frankly didn't care very much any more. The pace of the episode had exhausted me, and Rose didn't feel like Rose. She wasn't the character I loved now returning. She was some blonde girl (with a big gun, don't forget that, everyone, she's carrying a big gun, look at it...) who'd had a few minutes of screentime and whom we were sternly told we were supposed to care deeply about. And that was the whole episode to me: a dizzying bunch of Things That Happened, which lacked any sort of emotional resonance or story arc. It was a mish-mash. The other problem is the tone. As I've said, I didn't feel any emotion from the episode. The episode kept telling me to be emotional, again and again, but it just didn't stick. Where was the menace of the Daleks? They show up with relatively little fanfare, then proceeded to do not much more than blandly herd humans back and forth in the streets, pausing only to set up a joke where Sarah Jane gets stuck in traffic behind them. Contrast it with Dalek or The Parting of the Ways and it all feels so... well, wasteful. (Need I point out that this is exactly what happened to the Daleks in the original series? They were overused to the point that we all got sick of them and they were just comical. It wasn't until the new series that we could really be excited about them again.) Any moment in the episode that might possibly elicit some genuine emotion gets skimmed over in order to fit the next cameo into the 40-minute runtime. The only time the breakneck pace let up was for campy jokes. Instead of learning anything at all about the Shadow Proclamation, for example, we instead get silly gags about the Judoon's language (all the words rhyme, you see, which is hi-larious). Contrast it with Moffat's two-parter of only a few weeks ago; a story that is not only much better paced and constructed, but which is both really damn funny and incredibly scary and emotional at the same time. Sigh. I really hate ragging on Russel T. Davies. I keep saying that, but it's true: I really hate doing it, because it makes me feel like I'm one of those people who gives Doctor Who fans such a bad name in certain circles of the Internet. But he keeps doing this. For every Parting of the Ways he has a Love And Monsters, and for every Midnight he has a Stolen Earth. The man can WRITE. He can write like crazy if he sets his mind to it. Midnight was AMAZING. But it seems like, at least from the third season onwards, when he sits down to write an Event Episode, or tries to be funny, all of it goes out the window. The storylines fall apart at the seams, and he fills it with that campy humour that's too reliant on low-brow pop-culture. He becomes a lot like George Lucas in a lot of ways: the story is really good, but the writing is really not. Eesh, this post has gone all crazy-ranting-man on me. You're all going to accuse me of being harsh, and I am. It's just that the quality of this season has fluctuated so wildly it's given me whiplash. It's had some of the absolute best episodes of the series as a whole, and some of the absolute worst. Frankly, I'd be happier if it was just of middling quality throughout, since then I'd at least know what to expect from week to week. I'm not sure I've ever seen a TV show before that's so great in spite of the best efforts of its Executive Producer... Okay, Rant Over. I'm going to re-watch Stolen Earth again before next week, but I don't expect my feelings on it to change from what they currently are: that if it had been a two or even three-parter, it would have been great. That the characterisation and the integrity of the story and the emotional arc took a backseat to the manic effort to cram as much stuff into the episode as possible. And that, as much as it makes me feel dirty to say, I'm going to be really glad when Davies is gone and Moffat is running the show. EDIT: Okay, that's interesting. It wasn't spoiler tags, it was the abundance of italic tags I ended up using. I weeded a bunch of them out and it came good. Don't use too much markup, I guess. Bah. -----signature----- "A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." -Burt Bacharach http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrneutron http://twitter.com/timbo1138 (Yes, I'm trying it again...)
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/3 6:45pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/3 7:15pm (4 edits total) Edited By: HappyBob
	I can't disagree with any of those points. The thing is, for better or worse, I think "too much" was RTD's mission statement for this episode. And there we have the point of deviation: it pushed me past the "this is ridiculous" threshold and just became fun. (Then again, the same could be said for Dead or Alive, so take that as you will.) Much of the clutter in this episode is background detail. Martha/Torchwood/Sarah-Jane/UNIT all amount to the following point: "this is a global catastrophe and it's affecting everyone". (Well, that, and "hey guys, let's do a crossover!!!!!") Even a Dalek invasion is kind of routine by this point. That leaves Rose and Davros. Rose featured heavily in the last two episodes, and it still only feels like an extension of the foreshadowing phase. If we don't see any payoff, any further explanation of Rose's situation, I'll probably end up agreeing with you. Maybe it's just denial, but I'm not ready to form an opinion on the storyline until its conclusion. Not that I'm trying to logically talk you out of your opinion here. You've proven yourself time and time again as the sincerest class of Doctor Who fan. Just justifying my own thoughts from the opposite side, lest I sound like an RTD apologist. It really can be frustrating, the way the show swings so wildly between SWEET BABY JESUS awesome and just "meh", and Season Four is the most blatant example of that. Yet it's rarely, if ever, actually bad. Like you said, sometimes it's more painful to have mixed feelings on an episode than to actively dislike it. In conclusion, bring on 2010, and an executive producer who doesn't polarise fans with every breath. Postscript: Please, please, let there be a proper regeneration. Temporary? Sure. Temporary and resolved without a cheap and unnecessary reset? Even better. But as much as I love Tennant as The Doctor, I will feel cheated if we still see his face when that light subsides. -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/3 7:27pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/3 10:31pm (2 edits total) Edited By: HappyBob
	I'm trading forum etiquette for narrative logic here. Different show = different post. Torchwood's third season is sounding very interesting and ambitious. It will be a five-part miniseries airing over a single week. Season two was good - often great, in fact - but still slightly... wrong on that fundamental level. The immature maturity, while less common, was still there, and the two central villains just didn't click for me the way they should have. But it was a step in the right direction. This change of format, combined with the departure of Head Writer Chris Chibnall (another frustratingly inconsistent showrunner) and [finale spoilers] the major cast cut-down in 213, could be the detox the show needs. All signs point to a massive retooling, and for once, I'm actually enthusiastic about the show's return. -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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BigBossNass1138 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/3 7:51pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	I need to catch up on Torchwood season 2. I definitely like the sound of 3. A retool is a very good idea, in my mind. The show really felt in the first season like it was floundering about for its own particular niche, and it sounds like that continues through season 2. As for your response to my previous post, HB, all good points. As I've said, my comentary comes from a place not of dislike as such, but of frustration. I really love the show, and it pains me when it drops the ball and misses oportunities to do things better. I stand by my feelings that it was a poorly constructed episode, full of good ideas that didn't get their due, but it wasn't terrible. Basically, if it had been a 90 minutes special rather than a 40 minute single episode, I probably would have loved it. I just hope the finale is more coherant. And I totally agree with you about the regeneration. It NEEDS to be a new actor, even if it's just for 35 minutes. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this means David Tennant's leaving after next year, that they've already picked his replacement, and are trotting him out now as a tease. Certainly that's innovative and audatious enough to get me really quite excited. So anyway, do we want to have a get-together on Sunday? Re-watch at least Stolen Earth (possibly a few more) then dive into the finale? -----signature----- "A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." -Burt Bacharach http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrneutron http://twitter.com/timbo1138 (Yes, I'm trying it again...)
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/6 1:53am Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/6 2:02am (5 edits total) Edited By: HappyBob
	I said I would feel cheated if they backpedaled on the regeneration, and I did. That disappointment faded when the resolution not only had major consequences, but effectively became the pivot point for the entire episode, concluding the stories of two companions. The Good: -The ending: absolutely heartbreaking. Some of RTD's sincerest character work. -The extended run time. This episode had much more room to breathe than the last. -Rose was far (sorry) Rosier this episode. This wasn't a token cameo; it was a coda to her story. -The Tardis, finally with a proper crew, and the joy on everyone's faces during that scene. -The second Doctor. I love that he was a different man. The explanation for that - that Rose changed him - also justified the ending. She was (forty years of existing continuity aside) a "first love" of sorts, and I have no issues with the (humanised) Doctor admitting that. -Davros, done justice. I look forward to his inevitable return. -The implications for Torchwood's third season. Mickey and Martha should be far more fun than Owen and Tosh, not to mention a more solid link to the Whoniverse. The Bad: -The Osterhagen Key wasn't necessary. At no point did its use feel justified, nor was I ever convinced it was a threat. Consequently, it was bad characterisation of Martha. Universe-obliterating bomb or not, bluffing or not, she had no real reason to see this as a valid option at that point of the story. Nor would UNIT be selfless enough to think the Earth expendable. The story could have created a situation where the universe was being ripped apart, leaving no doubt that this was the only way, but all we got was foreshadowing without any payoff, logical or dramatic. A wasted opportunity. -Laughing at spinning Daleks. Far too silly, far too Oh, let's have a little jest!, to feel like an appropriate resolution. -I didn't mind the shameless crossover last episode, because it sold me on these characters being part of the same world. But Sarah-Jane's necklace just seemed silly and intrusive, coming out of nowhere like that. -Cybermen at Christmas? Yeah, not really feeling it. Blame the Pantomime Precedent of the two previous specials. The Should-I-Be-Happy-Or-Annoyed-They-Flatly-Contradicted-The-TV-Movie? -I think he meant to say "quarter human". On the balance, a solid if flawed finale. It's got nothing on The Parting of the Ways, but the final emotional payoff made up for a lot, and left me more or less satisfied. -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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Murder_Sandwhich Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 7/6 7:16am Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	Aside from the a scene here and there I really really really disliked this episode. Honestly, it was like the BBC accidentally financed a fan-fiction script. - Everything is resolved with Donna's technobable and a console with has the power to stop the Reality bomb, stop dalek weapons, make the daleks spin (my eyes almost rolled out of my head when this happened) and KILL ALL THE DALEKS. You'd think the daleks would put that console somewhere other that where they were keeping the prisoners. - The regenation back into into Tennant was the worst kind of fake out. "oh, I just didn't want to change my face duh." If timelords could keep their faces just by pointing some regenratation energy stuff at an old body part, wouldn't they just lop a finger off and keep it in an esky, just in case? - As good as seeing everybody back together again, it was completely unnecessary. All that time spent with the SuperFriends running about the ship could have been spent with Davros. - Davros was excellent in this episode. He needed to have more screen time. "You take normal people and turn them into weapons" was great. - At the start of the season, I wouldn't have thought I would said this, but Donna was brilliant this season. Honestly, my favourite companion of the new season. She was a great character in her own right, and not just somebody to have around for the Doctor to explain plot elements. It was really sad to see her go . - I really hated the Doctor Clone thing. It just seemed to be that RTD couldn't think of a way to save Donna in the explody Dalek core, so he just made another Doctor out of the hand. All in all, I'm really happy to see RTD go. -----signature----- "BOMB IS FRIEND - COME VISIT FRIEND" - The Heavy "WHAT'S THAT SANDWICH? KILL ALL OF THE TINY COWARDS?" - The Heavy http://steamcommunity.com/id/murdersandwich http://twitter.com/Murdersandwich
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Magnus_Darcrider Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 7/7 10:35am Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	Well the season's finished, the dust has settled, and it's all over bar the shouting of disillusioned fanboys and fangirls. Let 'em scream impotently into the ether, I say Given that now I have a better frame of reference on some things in the second half of the season, lets knock over these recaps... Doctor Who 30.08/4.08 - Silence in the Library & 30.09/4.09 - Forest of the Dead I'm the Doctor, and you're in the biggest library in the Universe...Look me up! A little girl tells a doctor named Moon of the library she can see in her mind that goes on forever. As we follow her while she explores, we soon learn that something is wrong. There are intruders in the library, trying to break into the room the girl is in. The door flies open... ...and in runs the Doctor and Donna, asking if they can stop in for a bit... A really compelling premise opens the much-anticipated Steven Moffat two-parter as the Doctor and Donna visit the largest library in the universe at the behest of a mysterious message sent to the Doctor on his psychic paper. As much as this has been lauded as a great story and many fans see it as an indicator of the good times to come as Russell T. Davies leaves the programme and Steven Moffat takes over, I really didn't like it. Sadly, a lot of that is because I'm an old Doctor Who fan; I've watched an awful lot of it and read waay too much about it, and it can certainly slant your perspective. I like to think I'm not such a bad fan like 96% of the folk who hang out at Outpost: Gallifrey, but when I realised it hurt my appreciation of this story I have to wonder. Anyway, we have a mysteriously abandoned library, a team of archaeologists on an equally mysterious mission, the lead archaeologist; Professor River Song; and her mysterious relationship with the Doctor, the mysterious creatures that are stalking everyone, the mysterious kidnapping of Donna halfway through the story, and of course, the mystery of Doctor Moon and the little girl, inside whose mind this is apparently all happening. Glib summary, but it's to illustrate my first minor criticism; I felt there was actually too much going on in this story. To everyone's credit, the pacing of the story is great, and it's certainly not as cluttered as The Stolen Earth, but a couple of the plotlines could have been trimmed or cut with no adverse effect on the story as a whole. My major dislike was Professor River Song; unfortunate considering a lot of the story hinges on her and unusual because she's written quite well and she's played by Alex Kingston, an actress I actually like. I did like the Time Traveler's Wife stuff that was done with her as BBN predicted. However Steven Moffat is now three for three with that particular idea, and frankly, it's been done enough. I do like how TV Tropes are somewhat shocked that Moffat is putting time travel stories into a show that they regard as clearly not being about time travel What really annoyed me was that her emotional connection is practically rammed down our throats in such a way I almost hoped that she was the Doctor's stalker rather than the Doctor's future wife. It got old quick. My response to her was almost like...you know when you don't like a friend's partner, and you ask them why they're with that person? Well maybe you don't, but I'm tactless and do that sort of thing. Anyway, I'd have asked the future Doctor why he was with this woman, as I just couldn’t see why. Admittedly, she's not able to give a good accounting here, but still. The fact that she's a carbon copy of Professor Bernice Summerfield, archaeologist and former companion of the Seventh and Eighth Doctors doesn't help matters either. Actually, this whole story reeked of "New Adventures" plotting and characterisation...the bad kind... Incidentally, Alex Kingston would have made a great Benny, but anyway. Two things I did actually like about Professor Song though; I like that she laid the Doctor out in one punch which from now on can only be called a "Brig Special" And I loved the look she gave the Doctor as she realises that he must have always known how she died when they first met, and in that moment it's obvious that she could not possibly love him more. But what really bugged me is what can only be summed up as "The Doctor is Merlin" Problem. Did you know that the Doctor was Merlin? Was supposed to happen sometime after his seventh incarnation. It was a great idea that fell apart cos we were told about it but they never took the opportunity to show us that phase of the Doctor's life in his personal future. And that's what'll happen here; we meet the Doctor's future companion and wife and probably nothing will ever come of it. I hope, I hope that the Tenth Doctor's last companion before he regenerates is a 20-something archaeology student named River, and with Steven Moffat helming the series for the next few seasons it's a possibility, but I honestly don't hold out much hope. If it does happen, I'll re-evaluate this story in a heartbeat. The subplot with Donna felt somewhat unnecessary, and also cruel. She’s really put through the ringer in this one, and pretty much robbed of a happy ending. To be fair, Catherine Tate rose to the challenge and continues to impress. Who’d have known she’d make such an excellent companion?? The “Everybody Lives” coda didn’t really work for me, and I’m not sure why. It worked in The Doctor Dances because the Ninth Doctor was a beaten, broken man. It had literally been so long since he’d managed to triumph like that. This time the victory felt hollow…And that’s not a comparison of the talents or abilities of the new series incarnations of the Doctor! All in all, disappointing. However, if this is a sort of blueprint for a “Moffat Masterplan”, I will happily re-evaluate this story. Time for one more? Doctor Who 30.10/4.10 - Midnight Taking a big space truck with a bunch of strangers across a diamond planet called Midnight? What could possibly go wrong? The Doctor and Donna are holidaying on the leisure planet Midnight (probably to recuperate from their traumatic experiences in The Library). While Donna sunbathes, the Doctor decides to check out the Sapphire Waterfall across the hostile surface of the planet in a tourist transport. Naturally, it all goes wrong… This is something Doctor Who hasn’t had in a long time; a well written, well acted, scary character driven piece with no explanations and a down ending. I wasn’t expecting much from this episode, but it is brilliant. And while sadly it didn’t shut up the RTD haters, it should have, as this is probably his best work since /Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways. Nothing to fault with this one. And nice to see David Troughton in Doctor Who again! That’ll do for now. Be seeing you, Magnus Darcrider -----signature----- Killin’ ‘em all and takin’ their stuff since 1987. Pugnantes Malos, No Hos Pugnetis http://steamcommunity.com/id/darcrider http://twitter.com/Darcrider
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/9 3:41pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who - Date Edited: 7/9 3:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: HappyBob
	The Brig is back! The Brig is back! (Not in the show we want, but still.) -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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BigBossNass1138 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 7/9 9:15pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	Coooooooool. Will definitely have to watch this particular SJA episode at the very least. And don't forget: this leaves the door open for more appearances in other, related shows.... -----signature----- "A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of." -Burt Bacharach http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrneutron http://twitter.com/timbo1138 (Yes, I'm trying it again...)
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Magnus_Darcrider Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 7/10 10:18am Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	Best news I've heard all day Putting him in the Sarah Jane Adventures is a great idea, Nicholas Courtney and Lis Sladen have always worked well together. An appearance in Doctor Who would be wonderful, though hopefully they wouldn't try to top the Brig's last hurrah in Battlefield. Dodgy effects and costumes aside, it was U.N.I.T's finest hour and the Brig pretty much took on the role of Earth's Champion. I was going to put up the remaining recaps, but I think I should actually watch the episodes again, particularly Turn Left. Something to do over the weekend. Be seeing you, Magnus Darcrider -----signature----- Killin’ ‘em all and takin’ their stuff since 1987. Pugnantes Malos, No Hos Pugnetis http://steamcommunity.com/id/darcrider http://twitter.com/Darcrider
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Magnus_Darcrider Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 8/7 3:27am Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	Big Finish are releasing a box set of their first "season" of Eighth Doctor Adventures. These are the first audio adventures that Big Finish produced, so they're a bit rough around the edges, but did set the gold standard for which the later adventures lived up to and exceeded. As a side note; Charley's now traveling with the Sixth Doctor, which could be very interesting character wise. Be seeing you, Magnus Darcrider -----signature----- Killin’ ‘em all and takin’ their stuff since 1987. Pugnantes Malos, No Hos Pugnetis http://steamcommunity.com/id/darcrider http://twitter.com/Darcrider
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HappyBob Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/7 10:18pm Subject: RE: Doctor Who
	It's good to finally see these audio adventures at a (semi-)affordable price. These stories deserve a much broader audience than the current niche market. The first Eccleston episode picks up as if the show had been running all this time; we just never got to see the missing fifteen years of episodes. Well, here they are. The traditional Who format with maturer writing and performances. It just doesn't feel right to call these stories "spin-offs", not with the original actors involved. -----signature----- http://www.thatchickensite.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Rubber-Chicken-Podcast/17269938875 http://twitter.com/happybob
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