farrellg posted:The cripple mentality is a by product of a restrictive suit and a stuntman who couldn't have fought his way out of wet paper bag, which Anderson more or less admits. In fact, he did most of Vader's scenes in ROTJ. Do you mean that Bob Anderson wasn't that good of a swordsman? Lucas referred to him as one of the best swordfighters in England, even thoug the OT duels looks slower than the PT.
alansmithee85 posted:I was apparently too respectful with the little platitude I gave you Sinister. If you’re going to trash grammar to be patronizing with me (say first lesson please), you’d do well to back it up with substantiation.
alansmithee85 posted:I said at the outset that my contention is that Lucas’s comments, which are not echoed anywhere in any of the movies or even the eu, are contradicted by several rather reasonable interpretations of the saga. AND if one is of the disposition to herald his words as gospel rather than reasoned debate, case closed, then we have to agree to disagree. You obviously fall into such a category. By ignoring this and responding to my comments by merely reciting the 80% line without backing it up, you are not proving your point but rather committing a fallacy of argument; namely circular reasoning. “The issue of Vader being weaker than Palpatine was there in the OT, we just didn't see it. As Lucas says, if he's so powerful, why isn't he in charge of everything? Why is he bowing down to Palpatine? Why is Tarkin able to "have a leash" on him? Why does Motti mock him? Why did Ozzel blow Vader off and try to do things his way, rather than Vader's? Why did Vader need Luke to kill Palpatine? These issues were there, we just didn't see them because we were so blinded by his coolness.” I am not blinded by his coolness and nor am I saying necessarily that Vader isn’t weaker than Palpatine—I am objecting to notions that power (and there are many types of power other than ability to defeat another in combat) are statically set in stone. Furthermore, Motti mocks him because of the cultural attitudes against the Jedi, he is soon corrected; when Han says he doesn’t believe in the Force during the training scene, does that mean that Luke is just using pure luck? Ozzel blows Vader off, but I hardly think his Force ratio to the Emperor is what is on his mind, as he treats Vader as his superior in rank either way (though does not seem to be happy about it)—he is merely arrogant and incompetent brass. Tarkin has a leash because the Emperor wishes it, and the Emperor is still his master. Now, that does not in of itself say that Vader is weaker in terms of whether or not he could kill the Emperor. Like I said there many types of power, and though I’m loathe to use this as an example, in LOTR Sauron was defeated in combat somewhat easily several times (hence we do not see him during the novel proper as he’s learned his lesson), and before him Melkor/Morgoth had a Balrog lieutenant that was stronger than he, and he allied himself with Ungoliant, who also could overpower him. Supremacy in arms does not necessarily a dark lord make. Of course I don’t know why I’m responding to you when you have not to me: as far as the issue of Palpatine being his master in the OT goes, I wrote two lengthy paragraphs as to why this could still be rather reasonable were Lucas never to give these 80% comments (I don’t think many noticed a problem for the 20 years between the movies and when he “enlightened” us about it). Don’t use “we,” I did see it, and I have offered an alternative reason as to why this state of affairs was, which has more than a little backing from the third film rather than ancillary commentary by the director: he wants Palpatine’s knowledge, which keeps the Emperor in a relative position of safety and authority (not to mention this knowledge does make him more powerful).
alansmithee85 posted:“Luceno is an eu author. He does not have final say. Lucas does. This is why fans consider the eu to be crap. However, it can be excused that in LOE, Sidious is deluding himself into thinking that he can still get away with Vader being all powerful.” Non Sequitur the Second is more like it. I don’t count the EU as an authority at all, I merely said I enjoyed how Sidious echoed Yoda from ESB: we are spiritual rather than material beings. So Sidious is deluding himself now about his greatest asset is he? Since that is a statement on only your own authority, care to back that up. I mean, that’s just so in character for Palpatine to be foolish and deluded about the abilities of the Skywalkers.
alansmithee85 posted:“But as the next twenty years pass, Sidious feels that while Vader is good, he is not at his peak. Not what he could've been. Thus when Vader makes his bid to turn Luke, Palpatine seizes upon the chance to get Skywalker 2.0…. This is why he and Sidious vie for Luke in the OT. He is the ultimate prize. Whoever controls the son of Skywalker, controls the Empire. This connects to the rule of two concept that Lucas developed after dropping all other Sith Lords from the third draft of ANH. He defined it in TPM and in ROTS.” Once again, you’re disregarding an entire paragraph of argument that I proffered. This points to the fact other than spouting the same sound byte of Lucas’, you can’t argue against my points. Please refer to my paragraph about why Sidious would still pit the two against each other even without the 80% plot point—then maybe you can form an argument against it rather than just repeating yourself needlessly over and over again.
alansmithee85 posted:“But because he has lost so much, he is never able to be the demigod that he could've been. This is why he and Sidious vie for Luke in the OT. He is the ultimate prize. Whoever controls the son of Skywalker, controls the Empire. This connects to the rule of two concept that Lucas developed after dropping all other Sith Lords from the third draft of ANH. He defined it in TPM and in ROTS.” I’m becoming convinced you actually didn’t read anything I wrote and this is a giant farce. Anakin NEVER lost his potential in the Force, my whole original post’s point. If you disagree tell me how. How did he lose the midichlorian count by losing limbs? If you say they aren’t by cell, then point to the movie or correlating real life and tell me how are they proportioned. How is an amputee or burn victim less alive, less connected to the Force to uses Lucas’ words? Truth is, as the very good article that’s still hosted here on TheForce.net logically contends, the midis are by cell not mass and Anakin has lost no command over the Force. I highly doubt that by the movies and reason alone, without Lucas’ comment, you can disprove it. (Not to mention Lucas made other comments about the midis that would back, if extrapolated, that Anakin didn’t lose anything.)
alansmithee85 posted:“Lesson the third. Vader doesn't kill Palpatine because the latter can electrocute his ass, before he can overpower him. Vader's a walking lightning rod. Vader spares Palpatine from Luke's attack, because he still loves Palpatine. He still cares for him and cannot bring himself to kill him, which Lucas states. Anything in the novelization and the eu is insignificant to his story. That is why the films come first and everything else falls second. When Vader becomes Anakin, he chooses to throw away his life and the life of Palpatine, to save his son.” One, the movies have shown a possible way of deflecting Force lightning both with saber and hand if the proficiency in the Force is there; he is not naked and without recourse to that assault.
alansmithee85 posted:Two, WE are gigantic lighting rods as well, we have quite a bit of water in us; what you meant to say is that Vader’s life support systems are very delicate. (That lends credence to my argument actually. Even if he were as powerful as Palpatine, a stray bolt or two could really **** him up. All the better to wait until he has his own apprentice to gang up with.) Two, yes I agree the EU is insignificant and the movies come first. You however don’t feel that way, as you cite Lucas over them—anything, even commentary by the artist, is subordinate to the work once it’s out there—ask any English professor, painter, director.
alansmithee85 posted:He loves Palpatine? Much like Anakin’s loss of midis, but far more so, this has no, NO backing in the saga.
alansmithee85 posted:Not only is that antithetical to the Sith as portrayed in the movies, but Anakin reveals that he wants to kill Palpatine at the soonest possible moment to usurp him in TWO movies. Did his bosom blossom with love between Bespin and the Death Star? He had just offered to Luke to destroy the Emperor and end the destructive conflict, yet when Luke makes his move he blocks him. Unless Vader is bipolar there is a slightly more complex answer to be found than retconning Vader Loves Palps. A psychological dependency maybe, fear definitely, but Love? Give me a break. Once again, take out Lucas’ legitimizing the statement by virtue of the fact that he said it and let it stand on its own—which it can’t.
alansmithee85 posted:“Lesson the fourth. Vader is twenty percent less than Palpatine, making him equal to Tyrannus and Maul. Anakin would've been twice what Palpatine is in ROTS.” The Real Lesson. Get yourself to the nearest community college and take critical thinking or join a debate team. Your laughable lessons have addressed none of my points, ignoring about the entirety of the original post. Instead you indulge yourself in circular reasoning that can only be classified as masturbatory, not to mention thoroughly unconvincing. If you’re going to prove me wrong, PROVE me wrong. Don’t imitate a little kid in some class in the South arguing against evolution, saying “well my Daddy says this so….” Like I said, if you’re going to quote Lucas the Contradictory to me as the only evidence regarding plot (for the making of the saga I will take his word far more, but still with salt), we have to agree to disagree. Thank you for actually responding to at least one thing I said though: if Vader and other characters like Ben and Kane Starkiller were bionic in the scripts, could I please be directed to somewhere to find them? If so, I will humbly recant on that point and say my bad.
