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Author Topic: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
CJedi72 
Registered: Sep '05
8208_ANH Poster
Date Posted: 11/26/05 11:36am Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
How come after Anakin finally pledges himself to Palpatine, and says I will do anything if you help me save Padme, how come he doesn't mention it to Palpatine the rest of the movie?

How come this isn't brought up again about saving Padme? I still contest that this whole turning of Anakin is done very badly. I don't buy he started turning after the tusken slaugter either.

The only reason he pledged his allegiance to Palpatine, was to save Padme from dying, nothing more, nothing less, he never turned to the darkside, and it totally contradicts Vaders statement to Luke in ROTJ, "You don't know the power of the darkside!" The darkside is supposed to engross you and take you over, and before the PT, I always thought that Luke was stronger willed than his father, and that is why he never gave in to The Emperor. Anakin just wanted to learn to save Padme, not turn to the darkside, to me they are two totally different issues.

It went from saving Padme, to I am gonna go on a rampage of killing every jedi, but not ask about saving her again for the rest of the movie? Weak.

 
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darth-sinister 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 11/26/05 12:29pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Obi-Ewan posted:
The possibility of death in childbirth was not believable. In and of itself, it's ridiculous. Outside of some undeveloped third world country, it's almost unheard of.


Are you kidding? It's still possible today. There's a thing called hemorrhaging. Not all doctors can stop it, no matter how hard they try. There are also certain genetic disorders that can be fatal to either the mother or child or both.

That said what killed Padme had nothing to do with child birth. But rather a broken heart.

Obi-Ewan posted:
It's also completely disconnected from the rest of Anakin's actions. When Luke went to save Han and Leia, the rewards of using the Dark Side were obvious: give into his anger, defeat the Imperials, and save their lives. In Episode II, it would have been obvious, at least had Anakin arrived earlier: giving into his darker nature, killing the Sandpeople would remove the threat to his mother's life, and take her home. In both cases, the threat was emminent, tangible, and believable, and thus so was the attempt to prevent it. Death in childbirth, as tragic as it might be, is a death by natural causes. It's also something that nobody would become convinced of months in advance.

So Lucas thinks he can make it credible by placing it in a dream. So the focus is shifted from using the dark side to defeat one's enemies to using the dark side to learn some parlor trick to prevent death. Thus Anakin's actions--slaughtering the Jedi and the separatists--are disconnected from his expected reward. In Episode II and V, there is a direct connection.


So no, recycling the dream--or rather, giving us a preview in Episode II--isn't enough to make it believable. It's not about the dream, or the dreamer believing his dreams are infallible. It's about the threat revealed by the dream. Death in childbirth wouldn't be believable without the dream, and it doesn't become believable with it. The threat has to have some weight all by itself before using the dream becomes believable.



You miss the intention. The point is that the Dark Side is the pathway to power. And to have power, a Jedi must use the Dark Side. For the Dark Side can give the Sith what they want. Or more aptly put, let's listen to the creator.

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD commentary.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

"...some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, 'You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.' They didn't seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme....

--George Lucas, The Making of ROTS, page 188.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the Dark Side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says 'I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say 'I have become more powerful than any Jedi.' So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying 'I'm not going to let this happen again.' We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

"The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECEIVED BY THE CON as well."

--Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82

"I have what I call two sharp 'right turns' in the movie and they are very hard to deal with. For the audience, it's a real jerk, because you're going along and then somebody yanks you in a different direction. Anakin turning to the dark side and killing Mace is a very hard right, because we're dealing with things that aren't so obvious. The audience knows Anakin is going to turn to the dark side, but the things that he's struggling with are so subtle that it may be hard for people to understand why his obsession to hold onto Padme is so strong.

Showing how much Anakin and Padme care for each other is one of my weak points. Expressing that is hard to do. It's really hard in the end to express the idea, I'm so in love with you that I would do anything to save you; I'd give up everything -friends, my whole life- for you, and make that real-make that stick-and say it in two minutes. When I created it I knew I wanted two hard right turns-it's designed to be that way-and I knew I was taking a real chance that it wasn't going to work. But you have to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work, well then I'm going to get skewered for it. But if I can make it work, it'll be neat. It'll be good."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

"Ok, well this sequence always started out with Mace uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn’t the part where the emperor gives up, he goes - 'You got me! You got me!'. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn’t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think…and it makes the emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it’s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"He didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he realizing that with Mace dead he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, 'I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive.' Then he (Sidious) says ok 'I’ll do that but now you have to go and kill all the Jedi. Leave none alive or they will come back and get us - even the kids.' You have to get rid of all the Sith because there are two of them."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"The telling of this story of Anakin going into the Jedi temple and the other Jedi getting killed through the order 66 of the clones is just done as one of those kind of inevitable pay offs in terms of getting rid of everybody, the emperor is getting rid of all his enemies, but there’s a certain inevitability of it all and a sadness to it. I was always worried in episode 2 that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that lord Tyrannus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyrannus is the one that started the clones so if your paying attention its very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"The thing with the kids is necessary to establish how far down the road he’d come (Anakin) to do something that, this brutal and barbaric and it had to be in there but I definitely didn’t want to show it. It was really in the editorial process that the idea of inter-cutting her (Padme) with him when he’s at his very worst with her worrying about him. That juxtaposition works quite well cause it reflects as much on the slaughter of the children as it does on her concerns about him even though she doesn’t know the children have been slaughtered. There is a strong emotional connection when those sequences are pushed up against each other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"He is lying to her but rationalizing what he is saying. Lying to himself. He knows he’s wrong but won't admit it. Padme could never live with him now."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

--George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

"Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he’s done. This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done but he’s not committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

It’s the one moment that says he’s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil.

The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. It's recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the universe."

--Hayden Christensen, GQ Magazine.

"What drove me to make these movies is that this is a really interesting story about how people go bad. In this particular case, the premise is: Nobody thinks they're bad. They simply have different points of view. This is about a kid that's really wonderful. He has some flaws - and those flaws ultimately do him in."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 53.

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

"It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they’re good."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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-maynard- 
Registered: Jun '05
17261_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 11/26/05 12:29pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
wow. thanks for bumping this. this was a very entertaining thread

 

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"Sand rough. You soft." Anakin portraying the 'cave man' archetype
(this is only funny if you think the archetype excuse for bad acting is lame)
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COMMANDER-CODY24 
Registered: Nov '05
39904_Clone Commander Cody
Date Posted: 11/26/05 5:08pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Why would anybody think that Anakin's turn into the dark side was so weak...?

Did anyone noticed all the stages he went through:

Fear: To lose his mother.

Anger: To feel angry for those who were responsible, and taking revenge for her lose. He even felt angry for Cliegg Lars who wasn't able to do nothing for Shmi. Didn't anyone notice Anakin's look when he stare at him carrying his mother's body.

Hate: He hate them all, and he killed not only those whom were responsible for her mother's death, but all, including women and children, whom were not responsible for it.

Suffering: To feel the pain of his lose, and his dark fate. He felt he was useless, and that he didn't act properly because he wasn't strong enough. He felt guilty and took this burden with him for the rest of his life.

After giving into hate, he completed his path or journey into the dark side. He even took away Dooku's life just for revenge, because he felt so angry, and because he had so much hate. He changed so much since then, even since he was a boy, who knew nothing about greed, and who felt compassion for others.

He was so attached, not only to his mother, but to his love for Padme, and he was sure that he couldn't fail again. He felt jealous for his friend and mentor, Obi Wan Kenobi. He couldn't stand that Kenobi was the one elected for that mision to take over General Grievous, and he was jealous to see him helping his wife during childbirth. He felt that his powers were being understimated by the Jedi Council, and that his only friend was Palpatine, a man who didn't really care for him, but destroyed his fate, and doomed his life...

Who would ever think that his turn was so weak... what else would you expect then???

 
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DarthHomer 
Registered: Apr '00
6634_Darth Homer
Date Posted: 11/26/05 5:53pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
I have no problem with Anakin's turn. To say he goes from confused to killing Younglings too quickly is to completely disregard that this is the same Jedi who slaughtered women and children in AOTC. As Yoda said 'If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny". Turning to the Dark Side is like putting on the One Ring in LOTR. Once you make that initial decision, free will is no longer an option. Anakin made his decision to turn to the Dark Side before he even arrived in Palpatine's office. Once he started on that path, there was no going back until Luke showed him the way many years later.

That post was still really funny, though, Green_Destiny_Sword laugh

 

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3. ROTS 4. AOTC
5. ROTJ 6. TPM
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TCG 
Registered: Jul '05
14822_Duel
Date Posted: 11/28/05 9:31am Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Homer, you're saying 2 different things. the dark side will forever dominate one's destiny, but only unless your son comes along and convinces you to turn back.

jedi go from good to bad, so why cant you go from bad to good? you're saying its possible & impossible. his turn, imo, began when he cut off dooku's head.

forgive me for not reading every post on this thread. but i also believe anakin's turning is weak, nevermind the ridiculous fight scene, or the awful dialogue and acting. speaking purely of the motivations, it was weak. we all know he wanted desperately to keep padme alive after losing his mother. and i can even understand wanting to protect palpatine to do this. but then he immediately surrenders to the sith?! for what? in the hopes that they'll learn this power together? which brings me to my main point, how long did anakin think it would take to learn this power? i would guess years (thats how palpatine made it sound). palpatine didnt learn it his entire life apparently, and since padme was almost bursting with babies, and subsequently gave birth about 2 days after anakin turned, she must have been close already. did anakin really think he could learn this power in 2 days (or between then and the birth, which i expect would be no more than a couple weeks from the way padme looked, and the fact that she DID give birth shortly after darth vader, ADV)?!

i see the motivation for wanting to prolong padme's life, but i just dont see what this has to do with killing all the jedi. because he had no other choice? i just dont buy that.

i apologize, but i'm going to give my own idea on a better 'turning' for anakin (and bear in mind, i've only thought about this for 30 seconds.) the clone wars happen, and anakin becomes a master! and fights with the other jedi. in one major battle against the separatists (perhaps with count dooku or maul), many jedi are killed while he and obi-wan escape. he tells palpatine that he fears the republic will lose the war. palpatine tells him he must find some way to win, or they will lose. he perhaps teaches him how to use his anger to become more powerful in secret. perhps he even teaches himself lightning. then at the next major battle, anakin whips out the lightning and saves the day and is hailed as a hero by the clones and the senate, but obi-wan sees this. he brings up the lightning to the jedi council, who know it is a sith power. they decide obi-wan and mace must confront anakin (on mustafar?) - after anakin wins another battle, they confront him. they order him to stop using lightning, and to know how he learned it. he refuses, by claiming the war cannot be won without his new powers. a fight ensues: they gang up on anakin, and anakin is actually able to kill mace, but not before his own lightning screws himself up good (ala palps). then obi-wan is able to slice off his limbs and he burns up. he loses his lightning and suited vader thn goes on a hunt to kill the separatist leaders. the jedi discover the chancellor is the sith lord and try to kill him, but anakin saves the day again. they now have every reason to hunt down the jedi as true enemies of the republic, and the senate votes to eliminate the jedi... just an idea.

 

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DarthHomer 
Registered: Apr '00
6634_Darth Homer
Date Posted: 11/28/05 9:51am Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
TCG posted:
Homer, you're saying 2 different things. the dark side will forever dominate one's destiny, but only unless your son comes along and convinces you to turn back.

jedi go from good to bad, so why cant you go from bad to good? you're saying its possible & impossible. his turn, imo, began when he cut off dooku's head.


No, I'm saying that once Anakin decided to turn to the Dark Side (which happened before he even saved Sidious from Mace) the only thing that could redeem him was his son. That's why Sidious says to Anakin "You're fulfilling your destiny". By going to the Dark Side he is fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen One, it's just not clear what the eventual outcome will be, which is why Sidious doesn't see his fate at the end of ROTJ.
Plus, people act like saving Padme was the only reason Anakin turned to the Dark Side. That was just the most important of many reasons he turned, all of which were carefully laid out in the beginning of ROTS and the other prequels.
That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it happy

 

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Saga from best to worst:
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3. ROTS 4. AOTC
5. ROTJ 6. TPM
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darth-sinister 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 11/28/05 1:12pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Palpatine doesn't see himself as evil. He thinks that by turning Anakin, he can cause the prophecy to come true. But it's all from his warped point of view. It was not Anakin's destiny to turn. It was a choice he made, because he couldn't stop being selfish and greedy. He was tricked into thinking the Dark Side will save his loved ones.

It's hard to come back, because no Jedi had ever succeeded in converting a Sith back. Luke managed it because there was a family connection. Luke showed Anakin compassion and it brought about the change. Anakin couldn't let the one good thing that he ever did, be destroyed because he was selfish.

 

-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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DarthHomer 
Registered: Apr '00
6634_Darth Homer
Date Posted: 11/28/05 7:36pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
darth-sinister posted:
It's hard to come back, because no Jedi had ever succeeded in converting a Sith back. Luke managed it because there was a family connection. Luke showed Anakin compassion and it brought about the change. Anakin couldn't let the one good thing that he ever did, be destroyed because he was selfish.


That's true. I think the only other person who could have turned Anakin back was Padme, but Obi-Wan inadvertantly prevented her from doing that by turning up on Mustafar.

 

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EwokThatCried 
Registered: May '03
6950_Ewok Infant
Date Posted: 11/28/05 9:30pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Padme was withdrawing from Anakin after her attempt failed to convince Anakin he was on the wrong path before Obi-Wan made his appearance.

Anakin was no longer invested in what Padme wanted at all - he never was really.

 

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lorn_zahl 
Registered: Oct '02
14728_Trinto Duaba
Date Posted: 11/28/05 10:45pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
That's so true. I think what alot of us are missing is the true dark side in Anakin. He lusts for power and respect, he craves it.

Remember, he approached Palpatine:

"I know there are things about the force they are not telling me."

Anakin went to the darkside as soon as Palps told him the Plagueis story. This was his ultimate want in the universe, to keep people from dieing. Remember after the tusken slaughter? What does Anakin say?

"I will even learn to keep people from dieng!"

The very prospect of learning this trick coupled with his insatiable appetite for power was his downfall.

"I'm not the Jedi I'm supposed to be" <---- Very correct, he wasn't.

Becoming a master on the council pales in compararison to ruling the galaxy. Furthermore what is life without Padme? Also, the Jedi Council have always held him back *apparently*, there is this underlying grudge he holds for the Jedi save for Obi Wan.


All in all I thought it was quite convincing.

 
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darth-sinister 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 11/28/05 10:49pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
There was mistrust there with Padme. It might not have been easy or even possible for her to stop him. Shmi would've been the best bet.

 

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lorn_zahl 
Registered: Oct '02
14728_Trinto Duaba
Date Posted: 11/28/05 11:37pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Yeop. He probably thought Kenobi smoozed his way on board, the negotiatah.

 
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EwokThatCried 
Registered: May '03
6950_Ewok Infant
Date Posted: 11/28/05 11:42pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Yeah, Shmi would have been the Mrs. Voorhees to Anakin's Jason. happy

 

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Ceethreepio 
Registered: Mar '03
40034_Clonetrooper
Date Posted: 1/21/06 7:22pm Subject: RE: Anakin's turn - this is very weak
Eternal_Jedi posted:
ObiWan2790, that is a terrible cartoon.

I read Maddox's entire "review" of ROTS, and that cartoon of his is a prime example of how he has completely and utterly failed to grasp the whole point of the film.

"Sure! Even though I have no reason to believe you, I'm compelled to deny a lifetime of hard work, training, and benevolence..."

Anakin has every reason to believe Palpatine.

Anakin's relationship with the Jedi has been strained at best from the very beginning. In his very first meeting with the Jedi Council in TPM, they tell him that they sense much fear in him. They feel he is dangerous. Qui-Gon brought Anakin to the Jedi -- separating him from his mother -- so that he could be trained, and very quickly they decide that he will not be trained. By the end of TPM, the Council begrudgingly allows Obi-Wan to train Anakin, most likely out of respect for Qui-Gon's dying wish. This resentment characterizes their attitudes towards Anakin throught his entire life in the Jedi order.

In AOTC, Anakin expresses frustration with being held back by Obi-Wan and the other Jedi. They don't trust him enough to give him any real responsibilities. He knows that he is innately stronger with the Force than the other Jedi, but they will not train him to reach his full potential. He believes that they are either jealous of his abilities, or they simply don't trust him enough to teach him all that he is capable of learning. When his mother dies, Anakin is angry with the Jedi, truly believing that if they hadn't held him back and had allowed him to reach his full potential, he would have had the power to save her. They took him away from his mother once, and did not allow him to see her again during those ten years. Now they have taken her away from him permanently. He knows that if the Jedi ever find out about Padme, they will take her away from him too.

In ROTS, Anakin is still trying to gain the trust of the Jedi. Unlike the Jedi, Palpatine has always show respect for Anakin, and has recognized his abilities without any sign of mistrust or suspicion. Palpatine demonstrates his trust in Anakin by asking him to be his representative on the Jedi Council. The Jedi respond by granting him a seat on the Council, but refusing to grant him the rank of Master, as they still do not trust him. Obi-Wan then reveals that the Council only approved his position because they want him to spy on Palpatine for them. At this point, as far as Anakin is concerned, Palpatine has always been completely honest with him, while the Jedi have always treated him with resentment and distrust. And now the Jedi are asking him to act in a manner which he feels dishonest -- they are asking him to betray the Republic and work his way further into Palpatine's confidence, only to report on his actions back to the Council. A lifetime of benevolence? Hardly.

Again the Jedi show their distrust in Anakin by not allowing him to pursue General Grevious, despite the fact that he had proven himself capable of confronting the General. Now Palaptine confides in Anakin that he is in fact the Sith Lord that they have been searching for. In doing this, Palpatine is showing the ultimate trust in Anakin -- his is placing his life in Anakin's hands by telling him the truth.

Of course Anakin initally feels angry and betrayed, his first instinct to draw his lightsaber and strike down Palpatine where he stands. But he knows that is not the right thing to do. Palpatine may be an evil Sith Lord, but the laws of the Republic and the Jedi code dictate that he must stand trial, and Anakin believes in those principles. Once again, Mace shows Anakin that he still doesn't completely trust him by telling him to wait in the temple, and if he is telling the truth, he will finally have gained Mace's trust.

In those moments of solitude and reflection in the Council chamber, Anakin contemplates his relationships with the Jedi and Palpatine. He feels deceived, used, and betrayed by both Palpatine and the Jedi at this point. He realizes that he needs Palpatine's knowledge if his premonitions of Padme's death are real. The Jedi are not likely to share this knowledge with him, if the even know it. They will still probably take Padme from him if they ever find out. His concept of the Jedi has been tarnished, as they were not in reality what he had dreamed of when he was a child. The Jedi have never trusted him and have always resented him, and now they have been deceitful and manipulative as well. Anakin felt guilty about killing Dooku, and that he should have taken him prisoner instead. His confidence in the Jedi's adherence to their own code has been shaken, and he fears that Mace will kill Palpatine, rather than taking him prisoner. Her can't let that happen. Palpatine may be a Sith Lord, but he showed the ultimate degree of trust in Anakin, whereas the Jedi have shown their distrust for him at every turn. His image of what the Jedi stand for tarnished, and his trust in the Jedi broken, he ponders what Palpatine told him about the Sith, and whether the Jedi have even been telling him the truth about that.

So Anakin arrives on the scene, just as Mace has Palpatine cornered. Palpatine is (apparently) unarmed, and Mace is about to deliver the killing blow. Anakin pleads for Mace to stop, as killing him betrays the ideals of the Republic and of the Jedi code. And, of course, that Palpatine has knowledge that Anakin needs. Mace does not listen, and in complete disregard for the principles that he supposedly follows, prepares for the killing strike. Anakin intervenes, disarming Mace and saving Palpatine's life. He did not choose to, or want to, kill Mace; he simply reacted to stop him from killing the chancellor.

And once that choice was made, Anakin's fate was sealed. He has betrayed the Jedi order, and there can be no turning back. The Jedi will come after him -- maybe Padme too, if they find out about her. If he tries to simply walk away, the Jedi will still be after him, and Palpatine will probably kill him too. Padme will die, if Palpatine or the Jedi don't kill her first. If he walks away from this, or tries to turn back, all will be for naught, as Padme will die. Thus, for Anakin, there is no other way; he has to see this course of action through to its conclusion.

"... in exchange for a vague promise about a cure for a potential ailment my wife may have based on a premonition from a 20-second dream sequence."

"He can see things before they happen." - Qui-Gon Jinn, TPM

Was Maddox paying any attention to anything in ROTS or its two prequels? TPM clearly establishes that Anakin has a gift of foresight; it not only gives him what appear to be quick reflexes, but it also shows him potential outcomes of the future. In AOTC, Anakin is having nightmares that his mother is in pain and in danger. They finally get to be too much for him, and he goes to find her. He arrives too late, as she has been taken by Tusken Raiders a month before. He is certain that she is alive and needs him, so he runs off in search of her. Anakin finds her in the Tusken camp, barely clinging to life -- perhaps she somehow sensed that he would come, and was holding on to life so she could see him one last time. She dies in his arms, only moments after he arrived.

Padme and his mother were the two people Anakin cared the most about in his life. He had premonitions that his mother would die, and they came true; partly because he did not act on his premonitions until it was too late, and when he did act, he did not have the power to save her. And now he is having the same sort of premonitions about Padme. For Anakin, this is far from a "potential ailment" that his wife "may have based on a premonition from a 20-second dream sequence." He lost his mother because he hesitated to act based on his premonitions, and there was no way he was going to let the same thing happen again.

In conclusion, that cartoon -- as well as the rest of Maddox's "review" of ROTS -- is simply ignorant. He simply couldn't be bothered to pay enough attention to the movie to actually understand it. Every comment he makes in his review and its accompanying cartoons demonstrates his utter inability to grasp any aspects of the film that actually require a greater degree of thought than "ooh, pretty explosion!"


I could not agree more with that.

 

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