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Author Topic: What is best for the GALAXY?
EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 3:19pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"seriously? you find fault with his action...but defend the use of the death star."

The use of the Death Star was against a planet full of traitors, so yes.

"your generalizing."

Yes, that's exactly what Anakin tells him.

"he doenst like politicans, but senator amidala seems to be an exception."

Nope. The whole arguement they have over politics starts when Obi-Wan derides Amidala for being a politican.

"and so what if he doesnt like politicans? i dont either, does that make me an elitist? no, it just means i've been disenfranchized by partisan bickering, but i suppose thats a topic for another discussion."

laugh

Yes, it's quite good for the law enforcement branch of the Republic to not like the politicans who run it.

"its a metaphore. he views gg as a coward, and ggs' weaponry is an extension of his personal attributes."

So everyone who uses a blaster is a coward, eh?

"you try to argue that the republic was an elitist society, where all non-jedi were descriminated against?"

No, learn to read my arguements.

"the jedi were the minority, and were a religious sect. they didnt rule, and didnt pass their own laws that they expected the non-jedi populous to obey. how is that elitist? if anything, its the opposite."

It's what would have happened should the Jedi have succeeded in their coup.

"you criticize the jedi for being "secret police", yet expect them to be a the mercy of the leader?"

rolling_eyes No, I criticize them as a secret police force because they aren't at the mercy of the leaders. They openly flaunt the authority of the elected leadership

"they are suppose to fight because its their duty, eh? as Jannissaries? they shouldnt question their leader type of thing? basically you want them completly at the mercy of the chancellor? they should fight when told to fight, but expect nothing in return, such as the continuation of democracy?"

They're part of the Republic government structure. They have to follow the Supreme Chancellor. He's the, you know, LEADER of the Republic.

rolling_eyes

"it is a favor."

It's their job.

"the jedi code forbids fighting in wars"

Post proof or retract.

"who says the change was permanent?"

No one.

"is enforcing the will of a single leader onto the people through a doctrine of fear and an entire navy of armed ships, alright with you?"

They didn't seem to mind.

And again, stop posting three times to answer a single person. There's an edit button for a reason.

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 4:30pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
""seriously? you find fault with his action...but defend the use of the death star."

The use of the Death Star was against a planet full of traitors, so yes. "

i ask you to post prook that alderaan was full of traitors. now im not going to argue that princess leia and her father aren't traitors, because they are, but are the rest of the people of alderaan guilty? surly not! there is no proof to show that alderaan, including its population, numbering in the millions, openly supported the alliance. even if they are sympathizers, sympathy does not conote treason. the fact that the empire is willing to sacrifice millions of law-abiding, innocent until proven guilty citizens, shows the the use of the death star is evil.

"Nope. The whole arguement they have over politics starts when Obi-Wan derides Amidala for being a politican."

you cannot judge a character on one scene, and you are completly ignoring episode 3.
"our allegiance is to the senate, not to its leader"
obi wan may have a disdain for politicans, but he also is able to rationalize that is the senators who should be making the laws. by the time of episode 3, obi wan has come to trust some politicians more than others, at least in the case of bail organa and padme amidala.
and in the end, wasnt obi wan right to have a general mistrust of politicians? wasnt it the corruption in the senate that lead to a dictatorship, that was ruled by self-serving beuracrats? oh never mind, i forgot you actually like the idea of a police state run by a dictator...

"So everyone who uses a blaster is a coward, eh?"
when obi wan says that he is using it to refer to general grivous. seriously your taking it to extremes me thinks. it was put in there for characterization and to connect this to episode 4..and no not to characterize him as an elitist. when he uses it in ANH, he is doing it to recall more enlightened days, when diplomacy settled conflicts, not the end of an imperial troops' blaster.

"It's what would have happened should the Jedi have succeeded in their coup."
the jedi say they regret having to temporarily take over the senate, and they mean it...why? because unlike palpatine, they dont long to rule. and they werent going to merely remove senators. they were going to expose them of corruption, so that the courts and senate would have no choice but to remove them. i know i am assuming alot in this statment, but considering that the jedi use a thing called "the force" and not "the darkside" im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

" No, I criticize them as a secret police force because they aren't at the mercy of the leaders. They openly flaunt the authority of the elected leadership"

the republic seemed to be okay with the fact that the order was remarkably autonomous...until palaptine lied to the senate and used the jedi as scapegoats. until he brandished them as traitors, and failed to tell them he instigated the war himself in the fist place.

" Post proof or retract. "

"i can only protect you, i cant fight a war for you"
"we are keepers of the peace-not soldiers"

to me this shows jdi will avoid war at all costs, unless its necessary. using that logic you can see, that fighting in the clone wars was their choice, and was not mandated by their code, or an existing republic law.

"They didn't seem to mind"

in episode 3...before democracy was abolished, before the military ran a muck, before regional governors excercized considerable influence over people who didnt even elect them. the fact that sympathy was beginging to build in the senate, is proof that the people were beggining to question the rule of their leaders. so i would have to say...they did mind.






 

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EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 5:22pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"i ask you to post prook that alderaan was full of traitors. now im not going to argue that princess leia and her father aren't traitors, because they are, but are the rest of the people of alderaan guilty? surly not! there is no proof to show that alderaan, including its population, numbering in the millions, openly supported the alliance. even if they are sympathizers, sympathy does not conote treason. the fact that the empire is willing to sacrifice millions of law-abiding, innocent until proven guilty citizens, shows the the use of the death star is evil."

Prook? tongue

Question for you. Is the Empire evil because it blew up Alderaan and murdered Jawas and the Lars family?

"you cannot judge a character on one scene,"

Sure you can.

"and you are completly ignoring episode 3."

Strange that I would be doing so in an Episode 3 forum raised_brow

He only trusts Senator Organa because he is the only one that hasn't tried taking a shot at him.

""our allegiance is to the senate, not to its leader""

A Senate, mind you, controlled by the one they try to depose.

obi wan may have a disdain for politicans, but he also is able to rationalize that is the senators who should be making the laws. by the time of episode 3, obi wan has come to trust some politicians more than others, at least in the case of bail organa and padme amidala.
and in the end, wasnt obi wan right to have a general mistrust of politicians? wasnt it the corruption in the senate that lead to a dictatorship, that was ruled by self-serving beuracrats?[/i]"

So he serves those which he doesn't trust, eh?

"oh never mind, i forgot you actually like the idea of a police state run by a dictator..."

As oppossed to a blunderingly ineffective beurocracy catering to the whims of an ignorant mob where super-corporations can actually fight their own wars of aggression?

Do you really even know what a dictator is? The Senate and Jedi were quite willing to have him become one, until he started trying to control them.

"when obi wan says that he is using it to refer to general grivous. seriously your taking it to extremes me thinks. it was put in there for characterization and to connect this to episode 4..and no not to characterize him as an elitist."

Regardless of author's intent, he associates blasters with barbarity.

"when he uses it in ANH, he is doing it to recall more enlightened days, when diplomacy settled conflicts, not the end of an imperial troops' blaster."

Oh yes, so a much more "elegant" time where limbs went flying and cutting a sentient in half was regular.

"the jedi say they regret having to temporarily take over the senate, and they mean it...why? because unlike palpatine, they dont long to rule. and they werent going to merely remove senators. they were going to expose them of corruption, so that the courts and senate would have no choice but to remove them. i know i am assuming alot in this statment, but considering that the jedi use a thing called "the force" and not "the darkside" im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt."

Funny, I seem to recall the Dark Side being half of the Force happy

"the republic seemed to be okay with the fact that the order was remarkably autonomous...until palaptine lied to the senate and used the jedi as scapegoats."

Of course, because they had come to rely upon the Jedi as their enforcers...until the Jedi attempted a coup happy

"until he brandished them as traitors,"

Until they walked into his office and tried to kill him.

"and failed to tell them he instigated the war himself in the fist place."

Instigated it or not is debatable. The CIS was quite sure in the justness of its cause.

""i can only protect you, i cant fight a war for you""

Out of context. A Jedi Master cannot take down an entire army on his own.

""we are keepers of the peace-not soldiers""

And yet they're trained from infancy to use lightsabers that can cut off a sentient's limb with ease, and they instantly become soldiers the moment war breaks out.

"to me this shows jdi will avoid war at all costs, unless its necessary. using that logic you can see, that fighting in the clone wars was their choice, and was not mandated by their code, or an existing republic law."

They fought because they swore to serve the Republic.

"in episode 3...before democracy was abolished, before the military ran a muck, before regional governors excercized considerable influence over people who didnt even elect them. the fact that sympathy was beginging to build in the senate, is proof that the people were beggining to question the rule of their leaders. so i would have to say...they did mind."

Democracy never existed in the Republic. Anyone who believes it did is ignorant. The Senate was not disolved until prominent members began openly undermining the stability of the Empire. The Jedi were not branded traitors until they tried to overthrow the legitimate government of the Republic. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization founded by power-hungry Senators, its ranks filled with criminals, drug-runners, and cultists.

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 5:33pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"Democracy never existed in the Republic. Anyone who believes it did is ignorant. The Senate was not disolved until prominent members began openly undermining the stability of the Empire. The Jedi were not branded traitors until they tried to overthrow the legitimate government of the Republic. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization founded by power-hungry Senators, its ranks filled with criminals, drug-runners, and cultists"

give me proof that shows democracy didnt exist. are you calling the jedi ignorant?
"my allegiance is to the republic..to democracy!"

and by saying democracy didnt exist, you just defeated your own arguments, in which you repeatedly say that palpatine was elected into office "through every proper channel and procedure" or something to that effect. so if democracy didnt exist, then palpatine's rule isnt legitimate.

the alliance was founded by senators who realized that a dictatorship could only lead to one place...tyranny. they didnt actually wage war until the emperor's attrocities became hard to ignore. they were concerned that palaptine's new order could lead to an abuse of power...which it did.


and how can you possibly defend the destruction of alderaan? honestly, try and justify how killing millions of innocent people was right. i challenge you. destroy millions of law abiding citizens, just to punnish 2 or 3 leaders? thats tyrannical, thats evil. a complete disregard for the people that it should be helping.

"The Senate was not disolved until prominent members began openly undermining the stability of the Empire."
so just because they disagee means they need to be silenced. yah, that totally justifies the emperor's move. it was a system of checks and balances, and suddenly because one department tries to rein in antother, that justifies them being done away with? hardly...

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 5:38pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"They fought because they swore to serve the Republic."

then do you not see the hypocricy inherent in palpatine's words? he knows the jedi will serve him and the republic faithfully, yet he plans to betray them from the get go, because he knows they wont like the idea of a dictatorship?

 

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JTO 
Registered: Jun '05
23041_Anakin's Ghost<br>Hayden
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:34pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
Option numba 1.

 

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EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:38pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"give me proof that shows democracy didnt exist. are you calling the jedi ignorant?"

I'll give you a hint. It's in the Republic's name.

"and by saying democracy didnt exist, you just defeated your own arguments, in which you repeatedly say that palpatine was elected into office "through every proper channel and procedure" or something to that effect. so if democracy didnt exist, then palpatine's rule isnt legitimate."

He is the legitimate leader. How does a lack of democracy in a government that was never a democracy make it any less legitimate?

"the alliance was founded by senators who realized that a dictatorship could only lead to one place...tyranny. they didnt actually wage war until the emperor's attrocities became hard to ignore. they were concerned that palaptine's new order could lead to an abuse of power...which it did."

An abuse of power that they weren't a part of. Believe it or not, the Senators rebelled because they no longer held power in their corpulent hands.

"and how can you possibly defend the destruction of alderaan? honestly, try and justify how killing millions of innocent people was right. i challenge you. destroy millions of law abiding citizens, just to punnish 2 or 3 leaders? thats tyrannical, thats evil. a complete disregard for the people that it should be helping."

Before I proceed, do you believe the Empire is evil because of its destruction of Alderaan? A simply yes or no will suffice.

"so just because they disagee means they need to be silenced. yah, that totally justifies the emperor's move. it was a system of checks and balances, and suddenly because one department tries to rein in antother, that justifies them being done away with? hardly..."

Stealing military information, firing on Imperial vessels, and killing Imperial troops could indeed be considered treason. Forming anarchist terrorist organizations might be too, but you never know.

"then do you not see the hypocricy inherent in palpatine's words? he knows the jedi will serve him and the republic faithfully, yet he plans to betray them from the get go, because he knows they wont like the idea of a dictatorship?"

You must not have been paying attention to that part where they try to kill Palpatine.

You must also not know what a dictator is, because Palpatine's been a dictator since the end of AOTC, and yet it was still a republic. The Empire was still a republic until ANH.

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:39pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
help me JTO, your my only hope!


there are a few people on this board arguing craaazy points. just read the posts on the past page.

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:45pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
yes i do believe the destruction of alderaan was evil....and before you start i know your rebudle

"tarkin was acting alone...vader later told so and so in the radio drama that the emperor would never have approved the destruction of a core world...blah blah blah"

thats all eu my friend, so it isnt canon. tarkin was acting with the authority of the emperor, and palpatine saw this regional governor as a loyal and obediant servant.

do you belive the slaughter of the jawas was evil, then trying to cover it seem like the sandpeople did it?obviously the empire wants good PR, even if its to the detrimate of another group.

do you believe the slaughter of the lars' was evil? because i sure do.

"You must not have been paying attention to that part where they try to kill Palpatine."
you must have missed the part where mace windu gives the chancellor two chances to surrender, the second coming AFTER palpatine killed 3 masters unprovoked. when mace decides to kill the chancellor because he is too dangerous, it is no longer about politics. it is no longer about legal matters and procedures, its about good v. evil. bringers of light v. the bringers of darkness, things that secular law just cant touch.

and what about order 66? defend that!

so what if 4 masters tried to kill him....should the rest of the order be judged by their actions? what if the rest of the order had no idea of mace's "treachery?" weren't they denied their rights as citizens to fair trials?

 

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EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:47pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"yes i do believe the destruction of alderaan was evil....and before you start i know your rebudle"

Alright, good to make sure.

Because if the Empire is evil because of the actions of its leaders, then Alderaan is treasonous because of the actions of its leaders.

Not to mention the people of Alderaan are Imperials, so they're evil wink

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 6:51pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
well let me clarify myself

the imperial leaders are indeed evil. i never said the whole empire. when i say empire it is implied (or at least is should be) that i am speaking of palpatine, tarkin, vader, and other military cronies who enforce unfair laws, and expect no dissention. thats why they must be toppled. the alliance doesnt go out of its way to kill innocents like the empire.

 

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EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 7:01pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
Sure it does.

Do you have any idea how many innocent construction workers, contractors, sub-contractors, technicians, and engineers Luke murdered in AHN tongue

"you must have missed the part where mace windu gives the chancellor two chances to surrender, the second coming AFTER palpatine killed 3 masters unprovoked."

I saw it.

"when mace decides to kill the chancellor because he is too dangerous, it is no longer about politics. it is no longer about legal matters and procedures, its about good v. evil. bringers of light v. the bringers of darkness, things that secular law just cant touch."

He knew from the start Palpatine controlled the Senate and the courts. What good would it have done them to arrest him then? It's a very stupid oversight by Lucas.

"and what about order 66? defend that!"

Okay.

After four prominent members of the Jedi Council, the Council that all Jedi are compliant to, Palpatine decides to execute the Jedi traitors at the front lines before they can learn of their masters' coup and carry on the insurgency.

All Jedi that were willing to remain loyal followers of the Republic/Empire stayed alive.

"so what if 4 masters tried to kill him....should the rest of the order be judged by their actions?"

By your logic, yes.

"what if the rest of the order had no idea of mace's "treachery?" weren't they denied their rights as citizens to fair trials?"

*shrug* They're in the military. Fair trials don't apply there.

 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 7:10pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"All Jedi that were willing to remain loyal followers of the Republic/Empire stayed alive"

palpatine never gives individual jedi a chance, save anakin

"By your logic, yes."

if you read correctly, you will see i have clarified my post, so no, that is not my logic. now answer the question.


" *shrug* They're in the military. Fair trials don't apply there. "

oh but they do, and should.

the annhilation of the jedi via order 66 is enexcusable, and shows the illegal actions of the emperor, and his crimes against fundamental rights.


 

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PADMELUVA 
Registered: Nov '04
23525_Aayla Secura
Date Posted: 6/21/05 7:12pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
and whats your stance on the murders of the lars' family and the slaughter of the jawas?

 

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EH_Pilot 
Registered: Dec '03
41188_New Republic Symbol
Date Posted: 6/21/05 7:36pm Subject: RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
"palpatine never gives individual jedi a chance, save anakin"

Wrongo. tongue

"By your logic, yes."

"if you read correctly, you will see i have clarified my post,"

After the fact, conveniently.

"so no, that is not my logic. now answer the question."

Then yes.

"oh but they do, and should."

The New Republic could learn a few things from that.

"the annhilation of the jedi via order 66 is enexcusable, and shows the illegal actions of the emperor, and his crimes against fundamental rights."

Apparently, he has the power to void such rights.

 

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