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Topic:
What is best for the GALAXY?
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Darth_Sidious_1983
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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As it was: 4 (with THE most powerful Force user in charge)
However, #3 is quite interesting, with Padme as a Lady Macbeth of sorts
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Darth_Sidious_1983
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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swatoa posted:
4. I come from soviet russia - I like strong leader.
Eh, comrade?????????
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... if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.
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PADMELUVA
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 7:57pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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"Wrongo."
when does he allow ki adi mundi or aayla secura a chance to defend themselves? how about the younglings?
"Apparently, he has the power to void such rights."
just because the senate didnt punnish him for making a hasty decision, doesnt mean he had the power.
and thats what the rebellion is all about. just because someone has the legal power to take certain actions, doesnt defend or legitimize those actions.it doesnt make them right. especially when he is going against the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto his power.
the alliance is about removing those in power, who have abused their positions
and you still havent answered my question:what is your stance on the murder of the lars family, and the slaughtering of the jawas, along with the subsequent "blame it on the sandpeople" policy?
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EH_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 7:59pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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There are Jedi that join him.
"just because the senate didnt punnish him for making a hasty decision, doesnt mean he had the power."
Possibly.
"and thats what the rebellion is all about. just because someone has the legal power to take certain actions, doesnt defend or legitimize those actions. especially when he is going against the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto his power."
From a certain point of view, yes.
"and you still havent answered my question:what is your stance on the murder of the lars family, and the slaughtering of the jawas, along with the subsequent "blame it on the sandpeople" policy?"
A regrettably heavy-handed military procedure
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PADMELUVA
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:06pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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you avoided the question (ever think about a career in politics?)
when does he let the order 66 jedi defend themselves? he doesnt, he casts judgment upon all of them, because of the actions of four masters.
and eu doesnt count, so none of that "mara jade=emperor's hand" stuff
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EH_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:21pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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"when does he let the order 66 jedi defend themselves? he doesnt, he casts judgment upon all of them, because of the actions of four masters."
Yep. He had to break the back of the Jedi before they tried a coup again.
"and eu doesnt count, so none of that "mara jade=emperor's hand" stuff"
Not who I'm talking about, but nice try anyway.
Regardless of your opinions of the EU, there are Jedi that join Palpatine post-ROTS.
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PADMELUVA
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:32pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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yes i know anakin joins him...
he knew full and well they wernt trying to take over, he knew that they were going to expose him as a traitor and sith lord that is behind all the violence for the past 14 years. that bit about them taking over and killing senators was all a plot to get anakin to turn. he didnt really believe all the bs that was pouring out of his own mouth, because he knew it wasnt true.
face it: he had the jedi executed because they could all later expose him as a traitor. and the fact that he didnt allow them a proper trial proves just how power hungry he was, and how he had a total disregard for the legal system, even though he often hid behind procedures, and laws.
but why not let the other jedi at least know their leaders were "treacherous"
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EH_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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Because Palpatine's not stupid.
And there are other Jedi that join Palpatine, aside from Anakin.
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PADMELUVA
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:37pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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again that is eu
we can only judge things as they are in the movies
and dooku joined before the jedi were branded as traitors. and dooku is irrelevent...why? because he was dead by the time of the supposed jedi coup, and was a traitor to both jedi and the republic.
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EH_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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Then you've limited yourself to a very narrow band of debate.
I stick with option #4.
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StarTrek_RULES
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:47pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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The republic needed to get rid of the Jedi, they were no good trying coup the Chancellor, WHat kind of democracy tries to kill their elected leader?!?!?
Option 4 is the best because you know in the end Vader kills the emperor anyways. And the Empire is much safer in the hands of the Sith then it would be under the Jedi. Jedi taking over would be instant Civil War
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cypher9000
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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I think most of the people who say "obviously #1!" have a very narrow minded view of the Jedi and think to one dimensionally. It is possible for good people to turn bad with good intentions. Anakin shows us this, as does Dooku, especially Dooku. Dooku seemed to want what was best for the galaxy and felt that the Sith was was the way to do it. If the Jedi took over then they would think that that is best for the galaxy, and it is very possible that they would end up becoming just as bad as the Sith without even realizing it. It's happened many times before to leaders who thought that theywere doing the right thing or the thing they were preordained to do.
Edit: And EU is crap that Lucas himself has refuted with the prequal movies.
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/21/05 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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PADMELUVA posted:
help me JTO, your my only hope!
there are a few people on this board arguing craaazy points. just read the posts on the past page.
Well, I'm not sure how sane arguing for preserving democracy via the establishment of an undemocratic oligarchy is.  Option 1 is as bad as the Empire.
Now, the people who vote for 1 do so because of the following reasons, no? The Jedi, in order to preserve the Republic, will take control of the Senate. Their wise leadership will bring peace and order to the galaxy, and put an end to corruption.
Now replace "Jedi" with "Palpatine" above and you have Anakin and Palpatine's dialog in the prequels almost word for word.
Just like the Republic saw it attractive to make Palpatine their leader because of the idealistic vision he offered, the idea of a Senate free of corruption due to the wise, just, and benevolent control of the Jedi sounds very enticing. Until you look closer, listen to Lucas' message about the dangers of losing a democracy, and realize that the Jedi oligarchy is a repackaged version of what Palpatine sold the Republic, just that since the Jedi are viewed as the good guys by the audience, and we know Palpatine is bad from the beginning, it sounds like a good deal.
Now, possible counterpoints:
- But the Jedi really are good! : Well, that's what everyone thought about Palpatine too. Not to mention that power corrupts, and the Jedi have been shown not to be all good to start with.
- The Jedi control will only be temporary until the Senate is free from corruption. : I remember a certain other politican who took power "temporarily" to fix the Republic.
- How can removing the corrupt Senators be bad? : Who decides what is corrupt? Taking bribes and whatnot, sure. But what about those who curry favors? Those who seek leadership and power? Would the Jedi just stop at the obvious cases of bribes? Would a Senator who has an anti-Jedi agenda be called corrupt? Could accusations of corruption, in fact, be used as a tool to get rid of anyone who disagrees with Jedi decisions? How is taking control of democratically elected Senators supposed to help democracy?
Choosing absolute control of the government by any party (i.e. totalitarianism) is the exact thing the prequels warn against. Whether it be Jedi or Palpatine, and the purpose be bringing peace, order, an end to corruption, or whatever other high-minded ideal that has been used throughout history to justify the removal of democracy, it's the same story. Calling one better because it sounds more attractive is simply succumbing to the impulse that creates these situations in the first place.
A powerful pseudomilitary band of supermen siezes control of a democratic arm of government, unilaterally ousts all its members who they deem to be unfit for service, and establishes themselves as the only group noble enough to lead the people. Dress that up with whatever ideals you like, it's still nothing less than a dictatorship. A rather self-righteous one, at that.
PADMELUVA posted:
the alliance doesnt go out of its way to kill innocents like the empire.
Since when did the Empire "go out of its way to kill innocents"? With some of these posts you'd think the Empire was a bunch of cackling men who kick every puppy they see and sit around plotting how to kill Superman. Now, I agree that the Empire is a Bad Thing (even if I disagree that a Jedi oligarchy is any better), but to act like it's some cartoonish supervillain is to ignore the whole point of the Empire. It is accepted because most people see it as a good thing, and that's how it portrays itself. And do you really think the Rebellion never tried to hurt an innocent? That its members are Crusaders for the Cause of Justice and Light? It's a militia/terrorist organization. It's bound to have more than a few nuts in it, as well as people bitter with the Empire, people with misplaced anger, and in general people who see any Imperial citizen as a justifiable target. Every army has those; it's what causes war atrocities. The Rebels are no more immune to the lows of human nature than anyone else.
PADMELUVA posted:
when mace decides to kill the chancellor because he is too dangerous, it is no longer about politics. it is no longer about legal matters and procedures, its about good v. evil. bringers of light v. the bringers of darkness, things that secular law just cant touch.
So not only is it a coup, it's a religious war. A Jedi jihad, if you will. Purging the infidels, heretics, and forces of evil from the Republic. Which makes the Jedi oligarchy also a Jedi theocracy as well. Add "Execute followers of all other religions" to the description above.
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LordBlack
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
6/22/05 3:38am
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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Would PADMELUVA and EH_Pilot please get a room. If all goes well, get married. 
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LONG LIVE THE IMPERIUM OF MAN  In love with Padme "War is a catalyst which accelerates many important developments and nourish's national and personal ingenuity" - M.A.F
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EH_Pilot
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
6/22/05 9:17am
Subject:
RE: What is best for the GALAXY?
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