darth-sinister posted:Lucas has changed a lot of things in the development of Star Wars. It's clear as day. The material that you site is taken from the third draft and was included in the novelization to fill space. Lucas and Kasdan did another re-write which is a fact. In this draft, the backstory was dropped and a new scene was added. In this scene, Vader attempts to find Luke through the Force after arriving on the Death Star II. Luke can feel him and is worried for a moment, then the droids walk in and the connection is broken. Luke then turns to the droids and tells them that he has a job for them. This scene was filmed and the score recorded, but was not included in the film. This scene is not featured in the novelization, but it was filmed and scored. When Lucas sat down to write the PT, he looked at his notes and script drafts. He then made changes based on new ideas that he had. Owen Lars is not related to Obi-wan Kenobi. Bail Organa is not born of royalty, but is the Prince Consort. Anakin was a boy when Obi-wan met him. Padme is not a royal monarch, but an elected official. Qui-gon Jinn was added. Utapau is now a planet filled with caves and sinkholes, rather than an arid desert planet.
Get_in_Gear posted:JarJarPlagueis posted: To say that the "Organa family" is "high born" is to say they're part of the royal family. Fine - they are never described as such in the SW canon. I'm kind of missing what your actual point in all of this is now... JarJarPlagueis posted:It could be that they're cousins. Even in England, the royal family is much more than just the queen and her descendants. Strike One! Strike One...? I'm not sure what you are on about. I know how England's monarchy works (or fails to work), thank you very much - I was born there, was raised there, and have lived there all my life. Once again, I'll just point out that I have agreed all along that Bail is, naturally, part of the Royal family of Alderaan. My point was that he is not, never will be, and never has been, a monarch. His wife is the Queen. He is her Prince Consort. Their adopted daughter is a Princess. JarJarPlagueis posted:You offer reasons for why GL didn't include certain materials as though you actually knew. You don't. Great. You present your Bail Organa family tree as if it is in some way substantiated or relavent to this thread also. JarJarPlagueis posted:He might not include something because he thinks the movie is already too long and he needs to cut it, because the following scene is a pointer scene so there's already too much dialogue, or because the background of the Organas isn't important to ROTJ. Or it could have been any other reason, or no reason at all. Unless GL says something, then we really don't know, and he's been known to change his statements over time. Well, in the Annotated Screenplays (1997) and on From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga (1985), Lucas explains exactly that - how he decided, ultimately, to reduce all reference to the Skywalker's mother to a bare minimum - something vague - because he knew she would be a key figure in the prequels. I'll go with that, seeing as how we have no evidence of him "changing his mind" about how he once changed his mind, at this juncture. JarJarPlagueis posted:For example, he now claims that he always intended Luke and Leia to be siblings, but that's not evidenced at all in ANH or ESB. Indeed, they directly contradict it. He's never claimed he ALWAYS intended them to be siblings. He's actually always claimed the idea of making Leia Luke's sister came to him during the production of ROTJ. (See the exact same sources mentioned above, in fact). Early drafts of what went on to become ANH did indeed centre around two protagonists who were siblings, although the story barely resembled the story we have come to know and love, if Lucas did want to claim his saga was "always" about these twins, he has a pretty good case, because the plot point was there as early as mid-70s. JarJarPlagueis posted:Strike two!! That's kind of irritating... JarJarPlagueis posted:Finally, repeating au nauseum that Mace is "indisputably" dead doesn't make it true. No one has refuted even ONE point that I've brought up. I have. Mace is dead. The script says so. Lucas says so. Jackson says so. McDiarmid says so. Gillard says so. Christensen says so. McCallum says so. The novelisation says so. The official site's databank says so. Everyone but you says so. I don't even know what your point is - what point have you brought up? That people who do not appear as corpses in movies cannot be dead? Even if they are dead? It's a silly point. There's nothing to refute. The onus is on you to prove that Mace is alive, not that you misguidedly think he "may" be at some point in the future in another medium which is not accepted as canon. JarJarPlagueis posted:It's just been a matter of, as one person was honest enough to admit, he's dead because we think so and there are more of us than of you. No - he's dead because he dies. He's dead because the authors have explicitly said so time and time again. JarJarPlagueis posted:There's plenty of room for Mace to have survived. If, say, Agen Kolar was brought back, that would be pushing it, but Mace? There's more than enough room. In literature regarded as non-canonitical, perhaps. JarJarPlagueis posted:In fact, putting all prejudices aside, if we saw that scene by itself without any other context, we'd all assume that he survived. Ahh.... Silly me. I've only just worked out you are yanking everyone's crank. Well done - I thought you were actually serious about this. You're not a sock of the guy who claimed there was a spycam in Artoo, are you?... what was his name...? Kudos to you. I kinda enjoyed your "game" Very amusing - I fell for it...
JarJarPlagueis posted: To say that the "Organa family" is "high born" is to say they're part of the royal family.
JarJarPlagueis posted:It could be that they're cousins. Even in England, the royal family is much more than just the queen and her descendants. Strike One!
JarJarPlagueis posted:You offer reasons for why GL didn't include certain materials as though you actually knew. You don't.
JarJarPlagueis posted:He might not include something because he thinks the movie is already too long and he needs to cut it, because the following scene is a pointer scene so there's already too much dialogue, or because the background of the Organas isn't important to ROTJ. Or it could have been any other reason, or no reason at all. Unless GL says something, then we really don't know, and he's been known to change his statements over time.
JarJarPlagueis posted:For example, he now claims that he always intended Luke and Leia to be siblings, but that's not evidenced at all in ANH or ESB. Indeed, they directly contradict it.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Strike two!!
JarJarPlagueis posted:Finally, repeating au nauseum that Mace is "indisputably" dead doesn't make it true. No one has refuted even ONE point that I've brought up.
JarJarPlagueis posted:It's just been a matter of, as one person was honest enough to admit, he's dead because we think so and there are more of us than of you.
JarJarPlagueis posted:There's plenty of room for Mace to have survived. If, say, Agen Kolar was brought back, that would be pushing it, but Mace? There's more than enough room.
JarJarPlagueis posted:In fact, putting all prejudices aside, if we saw that scene by itself without any other context, we'd all assume that he survived.
JarJarPlagueis posted:I don't have the energy or inclination to re-post all the reasons why Mace could have survived. Suffice to say that, in science fiction, fantasy, or mythology, if an important character "dies" and there's no body, then they could very well still be alive.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Gl knows this.
JarJarPlagueis posted:If he wanted to make Mace's "death" conclusive, then he could have shown a body, as he did for every other Jedi who died in ROTS.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Indeed, Lucas has gone out of his way in the past to make sure a character wouldn't come back, such as Qui-Gon and Maul.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Moreover, Mace isn't subjected to anything that other characters haven't survived.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Neither the Force lightning, losing a hand, or taking a long fall, or any combination thereof, have ever killed any character before, and Mace is the most powerful human Jedi.
JarJarPlagueis posted:I never said that Bail was or would be the king, but only that the Organas were "high born" as a part of the royal family (cousins perhaps?) as stated in the ROTJ novel, which apparently is meaningless to you?
JarJarPlagueis posted:You also then play the relevance card because you apparently can't argue the actual points on their merits.
JarJarPlagueis posted:There's no hard and fast rule that says that only one topic can be discussed in a particular forum.
JarJarPlagueis posted:Finally, although it's not really important, I saw an interview with Lucas (maybe Empire of Dreams?) where he said the idea of the twins was always there and at least implied that he always intended to make Luke and Leia siblings, which is clearly false (or he's a pervert). This seems to be the one thing we agree on. Our differences on Bail may not be that significant, and our differences on Mace are absolute. I hold that he could have survived. You insist he didn't. Some fans suggested that Naboo was destroyed because we didn't see it in the OT. I guess Mace was on it when it blew?
JarJarPlagueis posted:Where is it stated that the Organas aren't part of the royalty? If we dismiss one statement from the ROTJ novel that wasn't in the movie, then why not reject them all? Isn't it the rule that we accept everything that doesn't contradict the film? How else would Bail have met the queen unless the Organas were "high born?" Where does it say in the NT that Bail was just an average Joe who met the queen at a party?
JarJarPlaugies posted:Also, are you saying the original draft of ROTJ mentioned Utapau? If so, why? Grievous died there, but nothing else of significance happened there, and he was just a plot device for ROTS. Basically, GL decided he wanted Anakin to kill Dooku, and he needed another villain who would be powerful enough to draw Ob-Wan away from Coruscant. Additionally, he showed that there was a precedent for turning an organic being into a cyborg. Finally, he needed some other important villain for Sidious to talk to now that Grievous was gone.
JarJarPlagueis posted: Finally, repeating au nauseum that Mace is "indisputably" dead doesn't make it true. No one has refuted even ONE point that I've brought up. It's just been a matter of, as one person was honest enough to admit, he's dead because we think so and there are more of us than of you. There's plenty of room for Mace to have survived. If, say, Agen Kolar was brought back, that would be pushing it, but Mace? There's more than enough room. In fact, putting all prejudices aside, if we saw that scene by itself without any other context, we'd all assume that he survived. Strike three!!! Thanks for playing.
MystikalMaceWindu posted:well, to add a new angle/idea to the fold, Yoda never reacts when Mace is in trouble, nor when he gets sent flying out the window. And that reaction that he does make seems to be in response to Anakin pledging himself to the Sith. And so, if Yoda doesn't react to Mace, then......
