Bossk_Boy posted:In the novelization, I beleive it says that Mace was dead when he flew out the window- the lightning killed him. Accept it- regardless on whether or not the novelization is correct ol' Mace is as dead as a doornail. RIP man.
TheCRZA posted:I think there's also the symbolism that Mace reflected the parts of the old Jedi Order which would not change. Thus he couldn't survive. Obi Wan and Yoda survive and are able to adapt, barely, in time for Luke. Mace was inflexible. The rigid tree is snapped by the wind...
MystikalMaceWindu posted:TheCRZA posted:I think there's also the symbolism that Mace reflected the parts of the old Jedi Order which would not change. Thus he couldn't survive. Obi Wan and Yoda survive and are able to adapt, barely, in time for Luke. Mace was inflexible. The rigid tree is snapped by the wind... Actually, Mace dies because a certain traitor by the name of Anakin betrays the Jedi order, placing him, his fears, Padme, etc. over the Jedi order, so much so that he knowingly/willingly chooses Palpatine over the Jedi Order. Sure, ultimately, decisions that some Jedi made did contribue to Anakin's fall, but he is the one who made the choice to betray the Jedi, and to help kill a senior member of the Jedi. Let's not blame the Jedi now. Over the past year or more, I've found it interesting in a strange way that so many people are defending the likes of Palpatine and Anakin, both traitors, over the Jedi. You'll never find me defending the evil Palpatine and Anakin. Both are oppressors, tyrants, and evil.
Wolfguard posted:MystikalMaceWindu posted:TheCRZA posted:I think there's also the symbolism that Mace reflected the parts of the old Jedi Order which would not change. Thus he couldn't survive. Obi Wan and Yoda survive and are able to adapt, barely, in time for Luke. Mace was inflexible. The rigid tree is snapped by the wind... Actually, Mace dies because a certain traitor by the name of Anakin betrays the Jedi order, placing him, his fears, Padme, etc. over the Jedi order, so much so that he knowingly/willingly chooses Palpatine over the Jedi Order. Sure, ultimately, decisions that some Jedi made did contribue to Anakin's fall, but he is the one who made the choice to betray the Jedi, and to help kill a senior member of the Jedi. Let's not blame the Jedi now. Over the past year or more, I've found it interesting in a strange way that so many people are defending the likes of Palpatine and Anakin, both traitors, over the Jedi. You'll never find me defending the evil Palpatine and Anakin. Both are oppressors, tyrants, and evil. I think you misinterpreted the point of that post. How was it a defense of Anakin or the Emperor? It mearly entertains the possibility of symbolism linked to the situation and the individuals mentioned. Sure the Jedi were the good guys, however being "good" does not equal being perfect, nor making decisions which are 100% correct each and every time they are made. I think the theory is pretty spot on, especially when one considers Yoda's discussion between Obi-Wan and Mace in Ep II in regards to many Jedi being "arrogant," including the ones who were supposed to know better.
MystikalMaceWindu posted: OK, if that's the case, then I stand corrected. But your post was rather brief and blunt.
posted:You said the rigid tree is snapped by the wind. Almost sounds as if you're saying the Jedi got what they had coming to them.
posted:the reason why I responded how I did is because there's a group of people who do indeed blame the Jedi (namely Mace) for Anakin's fall.
posted:They sympathize and side with Anakin and even Palpatine, while pointing fingers at the Jedi. I still blame Anakin. Anakin made such choices. He knew exactly what he was doing.
posted:some of the Jedi's actions did contribute to Anakin's behavior, but that doesn't absolve Anakin of any blame, and doesn't change the fact that he betrayed the Jedi, and chose to do so.
posted:Yoda laments that, more so in the ROTS novel, saying he didn't change the Jedi to adapt with the times. But I don't blame Mace for that. The Jedi as a whole did indeed fail to change. I don't see Mace as being symbolic of that. I don't single out Mace as many others do.
posted:I look more at Obi-Wan's words to Padme. That they were ALL deceived by a LIE. And I blame the likes of Palpatine and Anakin. I don't blame the victim... the Jedi.
posted:Mace was doing the right thing. It was a last-second desperate act.... what else were they to do? It's for the same reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan confront Palpatine and Anakin. There's no time to sit back and assemble....
Master_Judusan posted:"Where are you going...?" "To find my Mace."
Wolfguard posted:MystikalMaceWindu posted: OK, if that's the case, then I stand corrected. But your post was rather brief and blunt. Well first of all, it was not I who was the author. I (like you) have interpreted the post in a manner which may or may not be the author's intent. 2nd, I'm simply contending your interpretation, which is not to say it's wrong, but only something I disagree with. That said... posted:You said the rigid tree is snapped by the wind. Almost sounds as if you're saying the Jedi got what they had coming to them. Well if you consider how the Jedi were, they followed strict rules/patterns and essentially did not waver or wavered very little. I think that is the correllation between them and the "rigid tree" which was broken by "the wind." The wind is = to the winds of change. In nature, life must find a way to adapt to change or it dies out, as what happened to the Jedi. That is not a statement which is for or against life changing nor whether it is deserving of survival or not; it's simply a reality and a fact of life. posted:the reason why I responded how I did is because there's a group of people who do indeed blame the Jedi (namely Mace) for Anakin's fall. See, I don't agree with that at all. There was no reason to trust Anakin based on his past actions. Moreover, HE is the one that chose the Dark Side. He could just as easily have chosen to reject it. He chose it for selfish reasons, i.e. his inability to let go of emotional and physical ties. Mace didn't cut off his own hand - Anakin did. Mace didn't make Anakin impatient, Anakin lacked self-dicipline. Mace didn't marry Padme and try to keep it a secret, Anakin did. I could go on, but I'm sure you understand and in fact may agree. posted:They sympathize and side with Anakin and even Palpatine, while pointing fingers at the Jedi. I still blame Anakin. Anakin made such choices. He knew exactly what he was doing. Exactly. Two words: personal responsability. posted:some of the Jedi's actions did contribute to Anakin's behavior, but that doesn't absolve Anakin of any blame, and doesn't change the fact that he betrayed the Jedi, and chose to do so. Yes. While, as you say, some of the Jedi's actions may have contributed to Anakin's poor choices, the key words are "Anakin's...choices." Not the Jedi's, not Palpatine's, not the Sand People's - Anakin's. You can't control what other people choose to do, you can only control yourself and your own choices. posted:Yoda laments that, more so in the ROTS novel, saying he didn't change the Jedi to adapt with the times. But I don't blame Mace for that. The Jedi as a whole did indeed fail to change. I don't see Mace as being symbolic of that. I don't single out Mace as many others do. I disagree. Mace, being part of the Jedi, is as culpable of that inability to adapt as any other Jedi. He is symbolic in the sense that not only were his actions single minded at that crucial point, but he was Anakin's "sacrificial lamb" in regards to rejecting the ideology and lives of the Jedi. posted:I look more at Obi-Wan's words to Padme. That they were ALL deceived by a LIE. And I blame the likes of Palpatine and Anakin. I don't blame the victim... the Jedi. Then do you think that Anakin would have done to Obi-wan what he did to Mace, had his Master been the one who had fought Palpatine? posted:Mace was doing the right thing. It was a last-second desperate act.... what else were they to do? It's for the same reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan confront Palpatine and Anakin. There's no time to sit back and assemble.... I agree.
