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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Razzen Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:01pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	This is a political statement. Anakin is saying, its my way or the high way.. Obiwan is saying that he believes in Democracy, and due process!! IN the context of the plot of the movie's politics, its that simple As I said though, he's still speaking in absolute terms with his allegiance to democracy--he doesn't accept alternative modes of governance or consider that the supposedly absolute good of democratic rule and the absolute evil of empire can in fact coexist in the same regime. I'm not sure I should comment on the political applications of this particular bit of dialogue, but I will note that Afghanistan had the first free and fair election in its history last year, that the citizens (particularly women) enjoy many more liberties than they had under the previous rulers, so I'm not quite sure how that would make the US-led action there at all comparable to Palpatine's in the films. Iraq is starting to go down the same path as well though it's a much uglier process. The Ewok-Viet Cong parallel falls a little flat since the Vietnamese at least had outdated but nevertheless modern weapons (provided by China incidentally) while the Ewoks were fighting with sticks and stones against lasers. Also, the United States didn't suffer the defeat that the Empire did as it simply retreated from Indochina and did not have its entire fleet, its most powerful weapons and its leaders all destroyed. BTW, it was Nixon who ordered the withdraw from Vietnam, and throughout his presidency scaled back the US's involvement there from the heights it reached under Johnson. I don't much doubt that Lucas had any of these comparisons in mind when making these films, but I do doubt whether he implemeted them accurately.
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Darth_Deus Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:02pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Everyone griping over Lucas' political insunuations needs to get a grip. It is obvious from Episode 1, which predates the Bush presidency by about 3 years, that Lucas had the idea of how Palpy was going to go about creating the war and mistrust of the Jedi. If George Bush has followed suit, that is Bush's fault, not Lucas'. -----signature----- * America's Most Wanted's 800th Capture! * http://www.amw.com/fugitives/brief.cfm?id=28102 *** Captured by yours truly....
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:23pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Back to the original topic... Context or not the point is that it seems like Lucas disagrees with the idea of absolutes and that is why the line is in there. I personally think this is a weak belief and a weak line of dialog. With that said I still love this movie and think that it wrapped up the saga in a way that doesn't really even allow me to seperate the movies anymore. IT is all now one long story and a really cool one!
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Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:41pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Look, it's simple. "Do or do not...there is no try." Pretty damn absolute if you ask me. The "absolutes" line from RotS is a mistake by GL. -DA
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Francesca Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:41pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	OK whether that line was directed at Bush or not, it has incredible meaning to it and you can analyze it any way you want. of course what Obi wan says is an absolute in itself, but it doesn't bring anyone any harm. when Anakin said "you either join me or your my enemy" he was purposely setting up Obi wan to fight because he knew he wouldn't join him. Only sith's deal in absolutes and obi wan is correct. Only evil and brainwashed people think in the same way that Sith's do. you are either their friend or their enemy, POINT BLANK!!! and if you are their enemy, then they will destroy you! everyone USES absolutes, but not everyone DEALS in absolutes. if you are a person that says "give me that or i'll kill you" then you have a big problem. and whether this was directed at any politicians or not, it is someting to be analyzed carfully and sensibly.
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:43pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Why wouldn't you destroy your enemy? The Jedi want to destroy their enemy.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:49pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	originally posted by Razzen: As I said though, he's still speaking in absolute terms with his allegiance to democracy--he doesn't accept alternative modes of governance or consider that the supposedly absolute good of democratic rule and the absolute evil of empire can in fact coexist in the same regime. I'm not sure I should comment on the political applications of this particular bit of dialogue, but I will note that Afghanistan had the first free and fair election in its history last year, that the citizens (particularly women) enjoy many more liberties than they had under the previous rulers, so I'm not quite sure how that would make the US-led action there at all comparable to Palpatine's in the films. Iraq is starting to go down the same path as well though it's a much uglier process. The Ewok-Viet Cong parallel falls a little flat since the Vietnamese at least had outdated but nevertheless modern weapons (provided by China incidentally) while the Ewoks were fighting with sticks and stones against lasers. Also, the United States didn't suffer the defeat that the Empire did as it simply retreated from Indochina and did not have its entire fleet, its most powerful weapons and its leaders all destroyed. BTW, it was Nixon who ordered the withdraw from Vietnam, and throughout his presidency scaled back the US's involvement there from the heights it reached under Johnson. I don't much doubt that Lucas had any of these comparisons in mind when making these films, but I do doubt whether he implemeted them accurately. Razzen, good post.. I see where you are coming from.. Ill comment on just a few things: he's still speaking in absolute terms with his allegiance to democracy--he doesn't accept alternative modes of governance or consider that the supposedly absolute good of democratic rule and the absolute evil of empire can in fact coexist in the same regime. To that I say, "Well then you are truly lost!" HEH HEH.. (Joking) Obviously our political views are at great odds, but I still respect your opinion. Democracy to me, in all honestly, is something I consider to be "good" and Empires, usually I denote as "Bad".. This simple paradigm is what Lucas was going for as well I believe.. I think you're delving just "a little too deep" into the politics as far as the films are concerned... But to each their own.. Lucas's Ewok Barb, is an obviously very simplistic view of what happened.. but it still serves a message.. Again thanks for the post, I enjoyed reading it.
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Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:50pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Darth Jamm - I agree. Regardless of whether or not this line (or any other line in the movie) stink, the movie still kicked some serious butt. My faith has been restored. BUT....that line still stinks.
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vaderisme Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:54pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Both the jedi and the sith see in absolutes. They both see black and white like a 1950's tv show. -----signature----- The dark side is stronger
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wookie_want_a_cookie Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:56pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Razen, saber is right on. If you can't get then, then you are lost.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 1:58pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	originall posted by Darth animater: Look, it's simple. "Do or do not...there is no try." Pretty damn absolute if you ask me. The "absolutes" line from RotS is a mistake by GL. -DA That is an illegitimate statment, because you are taking Yoda's comment out of context and applying it to a completely different topic, completely irrelevant to which it was originally intended.. We were through this exact topic already earlier in this thread. Check it out. Context.. Its important!
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Francesca Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:01pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	IN REPLY TO :"Why wouldn't you destroy your enemy? The Jedi want to destroy their enemy. " no i wouldn't destroy my enemy, and the Jedi's are destroying a real enemy, not just a person that made fun of them or didn't see their point of view. the siths want to destroy everything and everyone, and that's an enemy. the Jedi don't go around looking for people to kill, they will destroy who needs to be, and the Sith need to be. an enemy is not only a person you don't like, but they must be doing something wrong if they are your enemy. and therefore you must punish someone for doing something WRONG!!!.
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:15pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I never defined "enemy" as a person that "made fun of" me. The context of your post was that the Sith yearn to destroy their enemies and that is "dealing" in absolutes. I just said that the Jedi yearn to destroy their enemy and asked why wouldn't anyone want to destroy their enemy. You have stated that you wouldn't destroy your enemies. and it sounds like the reason is that your enemies are not "real" enemies. I don't get it?
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Razzen Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:32pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	To that I say, "Well then you are truly lost!" HEH HEH.. (Joking) Obviously our political views are at great odds, but I still respect your opinion. Democracy to me, in all honestly, is something I consider to be "good" and Empires, usually I denote as "Bad".. This simple paradigm is what Lucas was going for as well I believe.. I think you're delving just "a little too deep" into the politics as far as the films are concerned... But to each their own.. To which I say, "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost." Oops, wrong movie. Seriously though, we may not be as much at odds as you think, since I do believe that democracy can be a good thing when the majority respects the rights and liberties of the minority, but when the majority doesn't it's no less tyrannical than a dictatorship can be. And as I've said, democracies can be empires. I think people tend to conflate democracy with self-government, which is I think an objective good, but the form of self-government does not necessarily have to be democratic: a people can consent to be ruled by a king after all, and I think it's notable that the "good guy" planets in Lucas' universe are often ruled by some sort of royalty (the Organa family, the various queens of Naboo) and from what I've read Mon Mothma has plenipotentiary powers within the Rebellion. If only Obi-Wan had said that his allegiance is to liberty and justice, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, though he still would have been talking about political absolutes. You're right about one thing though, I am delving too deeply in the politics of the films. Such are the ways of political and sci-fi/fantasy geeks.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:33pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	You guys are missing the point again. When anakin is saying that "If you are not with me, you are against me." He is basicaly saying, if your opinion does not agree with mine, than I'm going to kill you.. (Similiar to Bush and the way he treats our allies, heh heh) This is an "absoulte" statement, because it allows no room for other beliefs or opinions.... Jedi are more forgiving and allow other beliefs.. They are defenders, and DO NOT seek to overthrough the government. Democracy is about everyone having an equal say.. That is what they are defending.. The Sith want to Rule as they personally see fit.. This is what they are talking about people!!! OK, I give up, you guys have a blast..
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