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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:35pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	My point was that Yoda was speaking in an absolute when he said "do or do not..." That is a statement dealing with absolutes. He doesn't leave room for gray. The topic or context is beside the point. It just shows that even Jedi deal in absolutes... From time to time.
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:38pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	As much as I understand that Vader is giving an ultimatum to Obi-Wan. Isn't he there specifically to kill Vader? Just a question.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:49pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	originally posted by Razzen: To which I say, "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost." Oops, wrong movie. Seriously though, we may not be as much at odds as you think, since I do believe that democracy can be a good thing when the majority respects the rights and liberties of the minority, but when the majority doesn't it's no less tyrannical than a dictatorship can be. And as I've said, democracies can be empires. I think people tend to conflate democracy with self-government, which is I think an objective good, but the form of self-government does not necessarily have to be democratic: a people can consent to be ruled by a king after all, and I think it's notable that the "good guy" planets in Lucas' universe are often ruled by some sort of royalty (the Organa family, the various queens of Naboo) and from what I've read Mon Mothma has plenipotentiary powers within the Rebellion. If only Obi-Wan had said that his allegiance is to liberty and justice, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, though he still would have been talking about political absolutes. You're right about one thing though, I am delving too deeply in the politics of the films. Such are the ways of politics and sci-fi/fantasy geeks. Another gret post Razzen.. Yes Arragorn was wise and I cringed when someone posted earlier (in this thread) about how everything was very black and white in Tolkien, and Star wars should be the same way.. It nearly pierced my heart, as any tolkien fan knows, even one that is only a casual fan like myself, that Lord of the rings is not always black and white.. Frodo's voyage "into the darkside" is one that involves many shades of both sides, and its his internal struggle for what he wants, versus what he believes in, that defines the series.. But I digress... Back to SW.(which by the way is my true love) I 100% agree with this statement.. since I do believe that democracy can be a good thing when the majority respects the rights and liberties of the minority, but when the majority doesn't it's no less tyrannical than a dictatorship can be. And as I've said, democracies can be empires. But I do think its slightly outside the scope of this debate.. I agree with most of what you just eloquently posted, but again, you seem to have a habbit of looking TOO deeply into the messages and themes. This could lead to your undoing you know Becareful, because sometimes if you look TOO deeply, you look beyond what the original scope and meaning of the original theme.. Movies (like ROTS for example) are like onions.. They have many layers to them.. But after awhile, you run out of layers and all you're left with is stinky fingers. LOL
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:50pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Definitely "do or not do" That is an absolute, He didn't say "do or if you have a different way of going about this I am going to listen to what you have to say because I believe that all voices should be heard and respected" Yoda is a hardliner!
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 2:55pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Yoda "do or Do not, there is no try" Was in the context of trying to use the force to lift an Xwing out of a swamp.. Its in a completely differnt context than Obi's quote about "only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi's comment was dealing with politics, based on Anakin;s prior comment about "his empire" Yoda's comment was a mind over matter themed quote, in the context of the force.. Context.. Its importnant!
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:09pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	No Doubt Context is important, but I thought you admited that this was a jab at Bush. If so the context is different. Bush's statement was that if you are not with us (context is opposing terrorism) than you are our enemy. The parallel is made to a man who is proclaiming to rule the universe by himself (context is opposing liberty and freedom, Vader thinks people "should be made to agree")and if you are not willing to accept that you are the enemy. I just think the jab is out of context so if that is acceptable why can you not draw parallels in regard to the "absolutes" from different contexts?
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Darth_Deus Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:27pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I don't think it's a mistake by Lucas. It's obviously an emotionally charged battle, for the Jedi and the new Sith. We all say stuff in the heat of the moment that doesn't make sense. Small Child: Mommy, mommy, can I have a cookie?!?! Angy Mother: I'll cookie you!! -----signature----- * America's Most Wanted's 800th Capture! * http://www.amw.com/fugitives/brief.cfm?id=28102 *** Captured by yours truly....
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Chaotic_Serenity Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:30pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	DEAL in absolutes. As in takes actions that are extreme. Jedi are supposed to think things through from all sides of the conflict and than make a decision that best serves the majority rather than their own selfish desires. Ultimately, any conflict will have to end in a firm resolution, but Sith only see things in a very narrow view of how something may benefit them. My point was that Yoda was speaking in an absolute when he said "do or do not..." That is a statement dealing with absolutes. He doesn't leave room for gray. The topic or context is beside the point. It just shows that even Jedi deal in absolutes... Completely different and actually wrong application of that quote. "Try or try not" refers to pushing one's self beyond the limitations of the flesh, and in fact deals with the exact opposite. Yoda wants Luke to abandon his narrow view of life as he's seen it, the belief that the X-wing cannot be lifted, and give himself to the encompassing ideaology of the Force. Before that, Luke was dealing in absolutes. The X-wing CANNOT be lifted. What Yoda wants is IMPOSSIBLE. Literally, Yoda is telling Luke to either give up the close-minded views he's had or don't try it at all. Only by by completely embracing that new aspect of understanding the Force is Luke going to succeed. This does not preclude Luke being forced to throw away everything he already knows, but only to look at things a different way. It's very much "mind over matter" rather than coercing Luke to go one way or another. Yoda is saying that ability to master the Force lies only within Luke's own mind, but he is not forcing Luke to choose one path or another. A Sith would not be able to understand that philosophy, would not be flexible and willing enough to learn and acclimate to it. Instead, they expect others to bow to and serve their own ideals. -----signature----- Part of the Darth Vader Fanclub. Because good is dumb. The ability to bash a movie does not make one intelligent. Sith for '08: Why vote for a less oppressive regime?
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:31pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	"I'll Cookie you" Thats true in real life but this is a work of art and a script that has been written deliberately to send a message, it is not an adlib reply by some crazy mother in a supermarket.
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Razzen Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:37pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Yes Arragorn was wise and I cringed when someone posted earlier (in this thread) about how everything was very black and white in Tolkien, and Star wars should be the same way.. It nearly pierced my heart, as any tolkien fan knows, even one that is only a casual fan like myself, that Lord of the rings is not always black and white.. Frodo's voyage "into the darkside" is one that involves many shades of both sides, and its his internal struggle for what he wants, versus what he believes in, that defines the series Agreed, on all counts. Tolkien was quite the mythological scholar and knew that many classic themes involved moral quandries and ambiguities. I always liked how he portrayed evil as an apparent good (the Ring, Sauron before his disfigurement) that otherwise decent men like Celebrimbor, Isildur, Boromir and even Frodo could, ahem, fall for, though his true heroes (Samwise, Faramir, Beren) were never deceived. RotS does this, too, to a certain extent, but I would have liked to have seen more of the seductive side of the "dark side of the Force" than what we got. It did seem like the quick and easy path from how little it takes for Anakin to turn, but the appearance of good just isn't quite there I don't think. But this is all off-topic. Movies (like ROTS for example) are like onions.. They have many layers to them.. But after awhile, you run out of layers and all you're left with is stinky fingers. Hilarious, I'll have to remember that one. Anyway, I guess we've reached agreement then, glad you enjoyed my posts and I appreciate what you have said as well.
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DarthJamm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:38pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	"DEAL in absolutes. As in takes actions that are extreme." The original question was whether or not this makes sense...After 8 pages of posts and many different opinions of what the line means I think its safe to say that it wasn't a well written line. Might we all agree on that? If your idea of taking extreme action is true wouldn't it have been easier to say that? I think the point is that it is not clear what the line means and it can be interpreted in many ways that don't seem to fit. If the line has to be analyzed for hours to find how it fits, it probably isn't the best fit.
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Chaotic_Serenity Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 3:41pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I'm not seeing how it doesn't fit. Sorry. Sith Lords bend things their own will. They cannot even begin to accept to understand the needs and desires of others beyond their own. What is so off-kilter about that idea? And the last time I checked, a line that generated thoughtful discussion was hardly badly written. Alot of ROTS isn't meant to be taken just one way. It's easy to intepret events on many different levels. -----signature----- Part of the Darth Vader Fanclub. Because good is dumb. The ability to bash a movie does not make one intelligent. Sith for '08: Why vote for a less oppressive regime?
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 4:24pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I agree with Chaotic.. It is a line that does make sense and the beauty of the line is that is can be interepreted several different ways.. Just be mindful of the context it was used in, and the meanings are there.. Lines like this, add to the depth of SW. Believe me, thats not a bad thing.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/26/05 4:27pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Oh and Razzen, Take care.. Great little discussion we had!
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n8storm Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 8:03pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Lucas has consistently said in interviews this movie is not referencing Bush. He wrote most of this movie ions ago and has said its a reflection on Hitler, Napoleon, and Rome. The with me or against me line has been in hundreds of movies and it is the bible. I've heard everybody in my life use it at least once. Everybody is reading waay too much into this movie. This movie is about big explosions and selling figures first and foremost. Lucas in not going to try to piss off half his fan base. Its just a movie.
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