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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
The Mentos® Strikes Back Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 5/26/05 8:17pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	This line works in the movie if you don't think about it too long. If you do stop to think about it, you realize that the Jedi too think (and believe) in absolutes. For instance, Jedi believe you should use the Force for knowledge and defense--never for attack. You can take this a step forward and say they believe in the absolute that murder is wrong. For instance, murdering younglings is wrong. -----signature----- "Bring my shuttle."
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Jedi_Master_Anakin Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/26/05 8:46pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	This whole ordeal with Bush is rediculous. Palpatine is more like hitler than any other politician in history. Order 66 anybody? Where does that come from? The Order Hitler gave to the Stormtroopers (another Nazi oriented name) to execute what Hitler feared the most. THe Jews. Palpatine feared the Jews the most. It's more a bash on Nazism than it is on GWB. People can make comparisons but they have to be looking for it. It's ****ing stupid. However, in context of the line... I think it's important. It shows that Palpatine was right in a way. That the Jedi are just as dogmatic as the Sith. Both of them are so damn assured of themselves in their quests for power or goodness, that they condemn the differing side. Palpatine says that the Jedi and the Sith are similar in almost every way. And it is actually true. The only real difference is that the Sith do not hide their intentions of self growth and the Jedi do. Mace wanted to kill Palpatine, even though it was wrong, even though it was against his code... because it would give him back his power. He and the Jedi Order lost a lot of power during Palpatine's rule. Mace wanted that power back. Plain and Simple. Being absolute isn't a bad thing completely, but this line only further demonstrates that both sides of the Force (Sith and Jedi alike) do not see their own errors. -----signature----- no
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Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 8:46pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Saberlover- No offense, but I think you seem to be missing the point of several people in this thread. OB didn't say "only the sith deal in absolutes...when it comes to politics (or picking their friends, or chosing their enemies)" It was a blanket statement which in itself is an ABSOLUTE! Look at the quote again. He says "ONLY A SITH..." That right there is an absolute. The context in this case doesn't really matter because his quote was a general statement. IMHO GL didn't mean this quote as a contextual statement. I believe it was a some sort of commentary or editorial on what he believes on a larger scale. To throw a line like that into a movie...a series in which deals with black and white, good and evil, just seems like a contradiction. Once again...the statement itself is an absolute, which was spoken by a jedi, which proves that it isn't just sith that deal in absolutes. "Do or do not, there is no try." If you want to look at context...that's cool. So when it comes to lifting an X-wing out of a dagobah swamp, would you agree that Yoda deals in absolutes? Of course, we know he did. But guess what....IT'S STILL AN ABSOLUTE!!! OB didn't say "when it comes to ______, only the Sith deal in absolutes." Oh..and BTW. Not to get Star Wars mixed up with the real world or anything...but GWB isn't a Sith. Now Lieberman.....whoa! I think he dressed up as Palpy for Halloween a few years back and forgot to remove his cotume!
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darth_abomicals Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 9:06pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Not to be off topic, and I'm sure this was discussed before but I can't find it in the boards--but don't you think that Lucas could have come up with a better name than "sith"? I just feel like I have a speech impedement every time I say it. "Jedi" comes out easy and natural. -----signature----- The sith don't take "no" for an answer.
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Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 9:11pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Originally posted by Chaotic - "Literally, Yoda is telling Luke to either give up the close-minded views he's had or don't try it at all." Sorry, I missed your post before I wrote my last one. I like your first point about taking actions to the extreme. You started to win me over for a second. But I think you strayed a bit when it came back to the Yoda thing. So Yoda is teaching Luke to lose his close-minded views by preaching with equally close-minded statements? Hmmm. Makes sense. Wait a second...no it doesn't! Either give up your close-mindedness or don't do it at all? That's what you are suggesting he said...in paraphrase of course. Sounds pretty close-minded. A simlilar TYPE of statement would be "My way or the hightway." Or "you better agree with me or else I'll...." If you keep going on this track you eventually get to Anikan's statement about being with him or you are his enemy. That first statement is like a gateway drug. First you smoke a little weed(do or do not), then you decide to try acid(you MUST let go of everything you fear losing), then H(If you are not with me then you are my enemy), then you're freebasing and the next thing you know, BAM! you're a Sith Lord! Hey, it's open to interpretation, that's why we're here. But there are a lot better ways to phrase it so that geeks like us don't have to argue over it for hours on end. Problem is that this line isn't generating thoughtful discussion because it was well written or well placed....it's unfortunately because it was misplaced and vague. That said. The movie still rocks.
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use-the-force-luke Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/26/05 9:15pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Like mattheweber, I took the line as Obi-wan telling Anakin that just because he doesn't agree with what he's doing doesn't mean they're enemies. I never saw it as liberal bias or whatever.
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Master_Boucks Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/26/05 9:18pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	^^^^ I agree. It's referring to Anakin's attempts to justify what he is doing by being so absolute about it. I think there is nothing wrong with the line. -----signature----- Boy you trained......gone he is.........consumed by Darth Vader Yoda - Episode Three - Revenge of the Sith
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Leonidas Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 5/27/05 5:26am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I never saw it as liberal bias or whatever. Don't you know? Everything's Liberal bias. Some people like playing the victim. -----signature----- "Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here obedient to their laws we lie." ~The Poet Simonides, engraved on an ancient monument commemorating the fallen defenders of Thermopylae. "Molon labe" ~King Leonidas just before the battle of Thermopylae.
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SaberLover Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 5/27/05 6:50am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Darth Animator.. All I can say is, the context in which lines are delivered are very importnat in the SW films.. There is never alot of dialogue (compared to most other movies) so you have to take in the context in which the lines are delivered.. (repeating this for the 100th time now) The music, setting, and the lines delivered before and after, are very importnant in understanding what message was meant to be conveyed.. The series as a whole is VERY context driven.. No, Obi didnt say, "Sith deal in absolutes when it comes to politics and how they want to rule the world" but all you need to do is to understand what they were discussing at the time to figure that out. (instead of taking the line out all by itself where it makes no sense). In the context of the subject they were discussing, the line makes perfect sense.. But the line, taken out by itself, is a contradiction.. Thats why the context of politics and Anakin's "world domination" theme, if you will, are very important in this instance. As an example: Liea says to Tarkin in ANH, (And this is 1 out of a 100 examples I could come up with off the top of my head) "I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board!" When leia says this, she doesnt actually mean that Tarkin smells. LOL... WE can surmise instead, from the context in which the line is delivered, that it is merely an insult to Tarkin, and that he doesnt actually smell.. lol I feel like a few of you on here are pretty young, and will continue to argue this until you are blue in the face, because you simply dont understand it... And thats Ok, because when it comes down to it, Star Wars can be interepreted in different ways.... But please realize, that from the context in which the line was delivered, Lucas meant this to be more of a political statement. Look at the lines from the movie before and after, that I posted ealier in this thread. Its all right there in black and white.. And to the few of you who claim that these stories were written before Bush came into office.. That is totally wrong.. Lucas writes the scripts for these stories as he goes along.. There is a basic plot he has.. But the dialogue, details, and scipt are not actually written until they go into pre-production and production.. Bush was definately in office when they were in production for this film .. And Lucas definately makes politcal statements in his films that relate to the real world.. This is no secret. ITs definately a Barb. And I dare you to name me another recent movie that had the quote "your either with me or against me"..Its too much of a coincidence that this movie has it... And I also have an article where Lucas openly admits to makeing a political commentary in this film.. I have the article and I will scan it in if you guys are still confused about this....
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GuardianLegend Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/27/05 7:21am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I was the one who said that Lucas didn't intend for the whole saga to be anti-Bush, since TPM was made before Bush, and AOTC was made before 9/11. I do think that there's a chance this line in particular is anti-Bush, but the PT as a whole cannot possibly be related to Bush. Lucas definately had the whole Palpatine plot thought out , otherwise TPM and AOTC's Palpatine manipulations wouldn't fit so well with ROTS. So even if some dialogue is anti-Bush like this line, the Palpatine arc itself has got to be unrelated to Bush. "You're either with me or against me" is a line I know I've heard many, many times before Bush ever came to office. The President, for one thing, is always using cowboy and movie lingo in his sayings. "Bring 'em on." for example. I'm sure another movie has used it, otherwise it wouldn't be such a culturally well known line, it wouldn't be something we all knew was a wrong way to think about things.
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Darth-Animator Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/27/05 7:31am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Whoa! Saberlover, I think we agree on something Though I don't believe this quote should be about GWB, I think it still may have been a subtle jab by Lucas. I did however read an article where even though he admits to political statements in his films he also says that he had no intention of taking a jab at Bush in particular. He explains it as coincidence and goes on to say that when he wrote these stories originally (that could be the key word)that he was thinking more about Vietnam and the Nixon admin. He also said that he had no way of knowing that his made up world would parallell our own so closely once this film came out, and said that it's "kinda scary" or something like that. Anyone else see this quote? However, like you Saberlover, I think his movie making process has evolved over the years and that he may have thrown this in on the fly. Back to topic...I have always seen your point that context can help you interpret a statement, especially in SW films, and the point is well taken. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this because I still feel that in this particular case, Lucas did a poor job of wording it. Guess that's not really anything new though BTW...what do you consider "young"?
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Quiet_Mandalorian Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/27/05 7:49am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	My reply: Be careful of your friend George W. Bush. I sense his motives are not all what they seem. Bah! You Sith, always spreading doubt and dissention among friends. -----signature----- Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
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Bluesy_Killer_Horn Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/27/05 8:13am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I thought what Obi Wan said fits in with the story. Not because it was true, but because I think that the Jedi were actually the ones who were lost, confused and in denial - Obi Wan saying such a thing about the Sith like that just reinforced that feeling that the Jedi also had their flaws, which contributed greatly to their downfall.
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Jedi_Master_Grover Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/27/05 8:14am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Bad Line Both the Jedi and Sith deal in absolutes. Your either in the light side of the force or dark side there is no gray area. -----signature----- "Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things" This lesson is brought to you by the letter S and the number 17.
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jedismith Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/27/05 8:27am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Not sure this is the right forum for this, but it seemed the best active one. Sorry to drop an EU ref on you, but I just started re-reading Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and was amazed when I got to Chapter 5, pages 45-47, where there is a long discussion of the craving for power by both the Sith AND the Jedi. I was kind of surprised because the book came out in 2001 (I believe) yet this section seems to resonate so well with the themes of Episode 3, and especially the Opera scene and the scene where Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin. I really suggest checking this out.
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