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Author Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Caliwho  90 posts
Registered: May '05
6604_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/3/05 11:46am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
I think Lucas said in an interview that he wasnt referring to Bush/republicans/whatever...just coincidence. Take it for what its worth

 
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HarrisPCa 
Registered: Sep '02
Date Posted: 6/3/05 11:59am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
I have only read the fisrt 2 pages of this thread, and boy are some people thick.

Nearly everything that is said is "an absolute"

Obi Wan is refering to democracy, which is his line before this one.

Even this thread is "an absolute", and me saying this thread is "an absolute" is "an absolute"

You need to think a little harder about things, not just take things at face value.

Sorry if anyone is offended by the "thick" comment, it just came out that way.

 
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Icebreaker  2418 posts
Registered: Aug '01
17815_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/3/05 12:21pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Crazy_Old_Kermit said:
What is the reason "you guys" won't re-gain power anytime soon? Is that a threat? Should we be concerned that Republicans (I'm assuming you're talking about) have more power in DC?

Yeah...that is a threat!
rolling_eyes

LOL! It simply means with the sort of rhetoric that you are spitting out...you will continue to lose elections.



-matt

 
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Caliwho  90 posts
Registered: May '05
6604_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/3/05 12:25pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
C´mon. The whole "dealing in absolutes" thing is getting a bit out of hand. He could have meant anything or nothing. It can mean Bush/Hitler/Saddam or just fundamentalists in general. On the other hand, its just a movie...People shouldnt perhaps read something into everything said.
By the way, liked the post with the Absolut vodka. Good to see some humor sometimes.

 
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GTyper  197 posts
Registered: May '05
Date Posted: 6/3/05 12:36pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
If only the sith deal in absolutes ( which include things like truth and goodness for example) then the jedis are walking on sinking sand never knowing any moral absolutes and basically living a lie in trying to justify their role of maitaining justice and peace.

The force is based upon buddism and taoism - if you get deep into these eastern based philosophies, what you will learn is that moral absolutism is a sham.

There is no "good" and "bad". There is no "right" and "wrong". Only perceptions.

What is absolute bad? What is absolute good? Where does good end and bad begin? Is it the same for everyone?

The problem with most western religions and philosophies is that they rely so heavily on moral absolutes. They need punishment for bad and reward for good. Without these things, they don't realize people would naturally strive for them. They seem to fail to realize the benefits in doing so naturally.

Jedi are living in the te (or practical application of daoist philosophy). It's about letting the dao guide you, direct you ... quit bucking the system type thought.

One doesn't NEED to have moral absolutism to exact goodness. Nor, is doing so "living a lie".

 
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GTyper  197 posts
Registered: May '05
Date Posted: 6/3/05 12:42pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
I am well aware that the US is a democratic republic. I, as many do, use the term "democracy" to cover a broad range of different governments that are "elected" by their constituents.

Democracy is used very loosely here. In fact, one might say quite incorrectly.

While democracy in it's true form does not work, to say that "there is NOTHING democratic about the American government" though, is false. While our officials are elected by a majority vote by the people, it is weighted with certain "safeguards" such as the Electoral College so that it is more the will of the regions or states, rather than resting with simply the majority vote.

Which simply, is NOT a democracy.

I am not advocating change on this one, but to call a large dog with spots a cow, simply because it is large and has spots is still wrong.

Calling the US form of government a democracy is calling a spotted dog a cow. It just simply isn't so ... now matter how close it comes.

However, both Afghanistan and Iraq's governments were elected by their own people and not "set up" by Bush or anyone else from the US.

Yeah, okay.

In the perfect world, yes, maybe. But, this is reality. Step away from the darkness.

We can't even count the votes in our own country - do you TRULY believe these "votes" in far less organized countries (under constant bombardment) are fair, organized and efficient?

You don't think there is a little spin going on here? Maybe just a little?

 
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aepandcdp 
Registered: May '05
23547_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/3/05 2:34pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Is not the statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" an absolute?

 
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Smokewars  63 posts
Registered: Nov '02
22195_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 6/4/05 12:42pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Yes, it is, and that's called the use of irony. See last post.

 
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vickiatmtn 
Registered: Jun '05
Date Posted: 6/6/05 9:55am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
I agree, and I compare it to the line in "Dr. Zhivago" when the doctor replies to the communist zealot that he's not a revolutionary, "But I'm not willing to kill you about it," or something like that.

 
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m0zart 
Registered: Nov '04
Date Posted: 8/20/05 7:32pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
SAND-CRAWLER posted:
You have to look at Obiwan's statement in the context of their arguement.

Obiwan: My allegiance is to the Republic...to democracy.

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.

Obiwan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes...


I just don't buy that this is the whole story. After all, the "aggressive negotiations" that the Jedi hold in cases of disagreements are acceptances of an absolute justification for force. Even if democracy were the vehicle, to state that democratic votes and ideals are the open justification for intervention, aggressive or otherwise, is the acceptance of an absolute. The book, which provides more dialogue in this argument between Anakin and Obiwan, adds another line to the mix. Obiwan's full statement is (and I am paraphrasing from memory):

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes! The truth is never black and white!"

Besides making TWO absolute statements, a contradiction long held as a classic conundrum in philosophical circles, it appears that there is a recognition here that Obiwan has never been a fan of the truth in human communications. While Obiwan is still one of my favorite characters, he seems to think that lying is alright as long as its done in a particularly clever way, "from a certain point of view".

Lucas' ethics and politics have been off for as long as Star Wars has been a franchise. I don't mean that in a particularly offensive way, but facts are facts... absolutely. This situation of openly ignoring your own contradictions while criticizing those of your political or philosophical opponents doesn't really win him any kudos in my book. Having said all of that, I still very much enjoy the Star Wars. Authors, even when starting from really flawed premises and attempting to prove ideas that aren't really factual (and thus not provable) often times are so honest about the situations in their work, that the real causes of the dilemas the protagonists face rises to the surface, and the clever reader, viewer, what-have-you can recognize and derive those ideas.

In this sense, George Lucas' Star Wars is much like Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. Though Hugo is attempting to show Socialism as the viable alternative to both Monarchism and Capitalism by attacking absolutist law as a vehicle to making either one possible (personified by the luminous Inspector Javert), he fails to recognize that absolute law is exactly the vehicle for wealth redistribution, and continual forced equalization, both of which are necessary for any Socialism. No sufficient argument is made for the preference of one law vs. the other, which would at least differentiate the actions by a basic ethical argument first. Lucas makes a similar mistake here, but in neither case does it completely destroy these great stories in my eyes. It just motivates me to recognize the more intently, and appreciate them all the more for being more open-ended and honest than most dogmantic pieces.

 
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joshuavance  992 posts
Registered: May '02
40278_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/20/05 7:58pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Spoken like a true Republican.

 

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m0zart 
Registered: Nov '04
Date Posted: 8/20/05 8:25pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Not a Republican here :P But I am a moral absolutist. Even if I were as liberal as the day is long, or as conservative, in either case I'd be siding with one absolutist view vs. another. Lucas' political jab against death sticks in ep. 2 is hardly vague, or settling on some truth "stuck in the middle."

The very notion of human rights REQUIRES an absolutist view. For a right to be a right in any meaningful sense, it cannot be revoked... only violated. Call me an absolutist for saying that, and you'll be paying me a complement wink

 
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joshuavance  992 posts
Registered: May '02
40278_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/20/05 8:30pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
That's the inherent dillemma with an esoteric modality of thought,though developed and richly complex, it is indecisive and non-commital. Heh heh.

And, thank God about the lack of Elephants!

 

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m0zart 
Registered: Nov '04
Date Posted: 8/20/05 8:37pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
joshuavance posted:
That's the inherent dillemma with an esoteric modality of thought, though developed and richly complex, it is indecisive and non-commital. Heh heh.


And contradictory... you left out contradictory. :P

I don't think it lacks commitment. Its actually pretty committed to something very solid, if not entirely consistent. The problem is that its also very ashamed to admit it.

If it sounds like I am personifying a philosophy, its probably because I am -- if just to avoid accusing actual people of anything.

joshuavance posted:
And, thank God about the lack of Elephants!


My momma always taught me, neither an elephant nor a jackass be.

In this case, I actually listened.

 
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