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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Darth_Seriously Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 5:47pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	People who don't understand the line are mixing up principles with absolutes. One can act on principles and yet not deal in absolutes. What's the difference? A principled person follows a maxim like "do unto others as you would have done unto you." A principled person is one who is internally consistent with his own norms. Like Obi Wan. An absolutist follows a maxim and refuses to tolerate anyone who does not abide by his maxim. An absolutist is beyond just being principled -- he cares not just about being internally consistent, but he is more obsessed with categorizing other people into binary, either/or categories. Obi Wan and the Jedi act upon principles. For example, during the climatic fight scene, Obi knows Anakin has turned to the dark side, and yet he still considers Anakin his brother/friend. Which is why he is torn when fighting Anakin. Anakin and the Sith deal in absolutes. Going over to the Sith, he sees Obi Wan as the enemy, since Obi refuses to join Anakin. Then, later, he says he hates Obi Wan after Obi tells him that he loved him, and wants to destroy him. An absolutist seeks to impose his principles on someone else, and when that other refuses to accept those principles, that person is deemed evil/other/enemy/traitor.
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tigermoth Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 5:49pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	There are no absolutes... So you don't believe in absolutes? You believe there are absolutely no absolutes? Come on. The law recognises absolutes, you know. If you murder somebody, it's wrong and you'll get punished for it. Even if you hide from the law and evade punishment, what you did is still wrong. Yes, I know, "it's our society that recognises it as, quote, 'wrong'," but oddly enough, ALL societies recognise murder as wrong. (I'm not talking about cases where an act is not universally considered murder -- like euthanasia or something.) Additionally, have you ever watched a few toddlers playing? When one of them takes a toy from the other, the "robbed" one gets angry. Even young children can recognise an act as right or wrong. It seems like humans have some sense of morality hardwired in us. -----signature----- I will arise and go now... --- Padawan of MidnightRain ---
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Jager Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 5:51pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	...and in time of war there is a truth to 'with us or against us". When a nation or person is attacked, those around you must rally to a side to prove their friendship and loyalty. Otherwise, what good are allies?
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Hugh_Jass Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 7:36pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	This line bothered me, as well. I would add to the discussion, but it seems to have been beat into the ground. GL fluked. No doubt he'll edit out this line and resell the movie to us as a special edition DVD. -----signature----- And I shall call you Darth... uh... Bob,er,... Vader!
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DarthDuckie Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 5/22/05 7:40pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I think the statement was made in specific response to the you're with me or you're against me type statement (can't remember exactly) I think OB1 was saying that just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion absolutely doesn't mean they have to be your enemy.
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/22/05 7:49pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I think the line shows that both the Sith and the Jedi are hypocritical. -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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solojones Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/22/05 7:55pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Hmm This line puzzles me as well. I can't decide if it's meant to be irony or not. I don't know if GL agrees with Obi-Wan is what I mean. Looking at the statement, it sounds like a Jedi principle, something they are taught- Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Now, I don't know what they're taught that this means. But I think it's also clear that the Jedi sometimes deal in absolutes, though they are not nearly as curt about it as the Sith. Personally, I think some things are absolute and the Jedi are right to say, "Gee, killing children is absolutely wrong." Are the Jedi hypocritical? Sometimes. And I think they are realising this by RotS. I think the Order's intentions are selfless, though, and that they by no means are craving power. Still, I'm not sure where this statement fits in with all of this... hmm... puzzling. -sj loves kevin spacey -----signature----- 6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation My short films: http://www.youtube.com/solojones1138
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JediLaura01 Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:03pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	To me this line reeked of Liberal bias. Its basically said to me....Conservatives think like this, therefore they are Sith. Its too bad this line made it in. Both the Sith and Jedi are absolutes. I understand that Obi-Wan probably meant that there are many grey areas but again, why can't you also explore those grey areas, and with experience and knowledge come to an absolute after figuring out something? I also know he meant that the Sith deal with "rule by fear and die if you don't abide by our rules" from the movies but again this is a knock on the current USA attitude with the rest of the world. I tend to agree with you. I didn't like the line either. -----signature----- "Dude, that was like a.... Jedi moment." - Hurley on LOST No one pays attention to my posts...so why do I bother?
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Moriarte Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:08pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Interesting solo_jones, perhaps this is to show how what Obi-Wan learned from the Jedi can be hypocritical in a sense and thus the Jedi as a whole. Ciou-See the Sig -----signature----- This shaking keeps me steady. I should know. What falls away is always. And is near. I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke~
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JediLaura01 Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:11pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Sure the Jedi are hypocrytical. I find it intersting that they are taught not to love, but yet Obi-Wan's last words to Anakin are "You were my brother Anakin, I loved you." -----signature----- "Dude, that was like a.... Jedi moment." - Hurley on LOST No one pays attention to my posts...so why do I bother?
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Jovieve Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:14pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	People who don't understand the line are mixing up principles with absolutes. One can act on principles and yet not deal in absolutes. What's the difference? A principled person follows a maxim like "do unto others as you would have done unto you." A principled person is one who is internally consistent with his own norms. Like Obi Wan. An absolutist follows a maxim and refuses to tolerate anyone who does not abide by his maxim. An absolutist is beyond just being principled -- he cares not just about being internally consistent, but he is more obsessed with categorizing other people into binary, either/or categories. Obi Wan and the Jedi act upon principles. For example, during the climatic fight scene, Obi knows Anakin has turned to the dark side, and yet he still considers Anakin his brother/friend. Which is why he is torn when fighting Anakin. Anakin and the Sith deal in absolutes. Going over to the Sith, he sees Obi Wan as the enemy, since Obi refuses to join Anakin. Then, later, he says he hates Obi Wan after Obi tells him that he loved him, and wants to destroy him. An absolutist seeks to impose his principles on someone else, and when that other refuses to accept those principles, that person is deemed evil/other/enemy/traitor. Great post, darth seriously. I only wish more people would read it. tigermoth There are no absolutes... So you don't believe in absolutes? You believe there are absolutely no absolutes? Come on. The law recognises absolutes, you know. If you murder somebody, it's wrong and you'll get punished for it. Even if you hide from the law and evade punishment, what you did is still wrong. Yes, I know, "it's our society that recognises it as, quote, 'wrong'," but oddly enough, ALL societies recognise murder as wrong. (I'm not talking about cases where an act is not universally considered murder -- like euthanasia or something.) Additionally, have you ever watched a few toddlers playing? When one of them takes a toy from the other, the "robbed" one gets angry. Even young children can recognise an act as right or wrong. It seems like humans have some sense of morality hardwired in us. Yes, there are some people who are moral relativists. Things are only 'wrong' because society deems them as such and thus the 'morals' humans follow are relative to their time and place. If you take poision away from a toddler, the toddler who was 'robbed' of the poison would cry as well, regardless of whether it was right or wrong to do so. There used to be nothing 'wrong' with slavery. It was legal and thus there was no immorality in it. [shrugs] It was relative. To tie this into Star Wars, this was a HUGE issue when it came to whether the Sand People were 'evil' in what they did to Shmi. To us (westerners) it was cruel and barbaric. But to the Tuskens, it wasn't. Moral relativism. -----signature----- "Are there Sith on this planet, Master Kenobi? Are they coming for us now? Should we - I don't know - run?" "Run?" he echoed. "Run where, do you suggest?" "I don't know! Away?"
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RaptorRage Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:15pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Blah that "If you are not with me you are against me" line has been used by many people long before it's recent connotation. Just people stretching to cram current political crap into the movie. How bout that WTC shot of the Jedi temple in smoking ruins, or that Shuttle Columbia shot of the Invisible Hand burning up in the atmosphere. Looking too much into things. -----signature----- Executor SSD: 17,174 - 19,136 meters Death Star I: 160,000 - 164,592 meters Death Star II: 900,000 - 960,000 meters
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MasterSareBabe Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:15pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	It doesn't mean that the Jedi don't see things in absolutes. The Jedi don't DEAL in absolutes. VERY good point!
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darthricekingreturns Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:18pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	yeah if only the jedi were more decisive, palpatine would not have used bureaucracies and greed to become the supreme chancellor and then secure emergency powers. the sith took advantage of the jedi's indecisiveness.
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solojones Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 5/22/05 8:26pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Well I said the Jedi have been hypocritical, but I still view the Jedi Order on a whole as positive. That the Sith are evil and the Jedi good is something I don't really think can be argued with if you've seen the whole series. But I think another point of the whole thing is that, indeed, no one is perfect. Good people make bad decisions. The Jedi have done this. Obi-Wan I think realises by the end of it that he has loved Anakin. I bet he hasn't said that before. Maybe he'll realise that he should have. The Jedi are afraid of strong emotion because they can be very dangerous. The balance struck by the end of the series is to have emotions but to not let your decision-making be ruled by your emotions. Remember, that almost gets Luke. It's only when he stops to think that he realises he shouldn't kill Vader. Back to the particularly hypocrisy of this line... I think it is a good point that the Jedi don't deal in absolutes. Perhaps Obi-Wan sees a difference there. Still, I can't help but feel that he is, at this point in time, missing the fact that the Jedi have acted similarly to the Sith. Now, this doesn't mean they are evil, because they aren't. But it certainly let Palpatine convince Anakin that the Jedi were evil, didn't it? -sj loves kevin spacey -----signature----- 6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation My short films: http://www.youtube.com/solojones1138
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