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Author	Topic: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
Darth_Ignant Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/23/05 12:08am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Jett is a total hottie, what are you on about? -----signature----- I hereby declare Manchester United FC to be truely the team of craptacular-ness and I accept that epic is correct in his denouncing of them, the team he foolishly supports. LFC FOREVER YNWA.. "Okay. I'm a fat lunatic. Does that make you happy? Does it? "
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Emkay69 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 3:57am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	jaguaro says: To all the people who are saying that this is an example of Lucas trying to be politically correct- You forget, or perhaps are unaware, that the Jedi are LARGELY to blame for what happens to them. They deal with absolutes all the time, and I think that Obi Wan's statement points out the hypocracy of the Jedi. This requires some elaboration. Could you please explain how the Jedi are TO BLAME for what happens to them? Last I checked, their role in these stories is not unlike a police force/religious order with firm moral principles that is aware of the existence of the evil Sith. They are as unaware of who the Sith is as everybody else - including Anakin who is closer to Palpatine than anybody. Once they discover the truth, they attempt to deal with it, but it is already out of hand. Darth Sidious had plotted long and plotted well and just flat out WON this round over the Jedi by having his ducks lined up - he had already considered facing them inevitable and his trickery led him to prepare for the day, hence Order 66. Here's the thing - it is ONLY because of Anakin's turning to the dark side that Sidious can revel in "unlimited power." Without Anakin's help, Darth Sidious is destroyed and his plans undone. And Anakin is only undone by himself -- his doubts and fears combined with his underlying lack of committment to the true Jedi principles. Remember, the movie is a moral tale about him - not the Jedi. The only poor judgment shown by the Jedi order in this tale is actually accepting young Anakin into their order despite their reservations. Dramatically, they had a good answer for every problem they faced throughout the PT, save for one. They solved, prevented or answered each problem they were presented with in the course of the story. This is not to say that some things did not go thier way - fate plays a role too. But ultimately Anakin Skywalker tips the balance in the end and gives Darth Sidious the victory over the Jedi he would not have had otherwise BECAUSE he had not accepted the teachings and counsel of the Jedi. He simply found the Sith solution to his fears more appealing than the Jedi philosophy that some things cannot be overcome and must be accepted. He could not accept that Padme could die and that it was beyond his control -- and that fear led him to the dark side just as he had been told it would. -MK
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Penkhull Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 5/23/05 5:41am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	My lord talk about an over reaction, if you want to look at it from outside of the film then why shouldn't GL have his own opinions in his film? Name me one book that doesn't contain the writers own bias, one painting that doesn't rely on the artists perception or ideas, one poem that doesn't contain the authors feelings. Frankly to accuse an artist of having personal bias is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. (unless you want your books, films etc produced as they are in 1984) If inside the film then OB1 has just been fighting to the death with his virtual step son and may have been slightly emotional when he uttered the line, have none of you ever said something that under scrutiny mighty not live up to the expectations you have shown here? -----signature----- Whatever you do to the least of my brothers you do to me.
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Sosanya Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 11:50am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Doesn't make any sense and probably why Ani is so confused....Jedi and Sith have absolutes..anyone who has an opposing enemy does...If the Jedi didnt' have absolutes then Anakin could get married...he could have attachments, etc...maybe the LIVING FORCE isn't absolute but the Jedi's dogma of the Force definetly is...I think Obi is just through with Ani at that point and wants to get 'em done.
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stormcloud777 Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 11:53am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	the quote as a catch all does not make sense. the quote with regards to "you are with me or you are my enemy" as an absolute choice makes sense. dont make the mistake of applying this to everything. The Sith want absolute power and the Jedi are more democratic and willing to accept all species.
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JediNdaCity Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/23/05 12:09pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	That's why it was put there, because Obi Wan isn't necessarily correct, unless you look at it from his point of view. Obi Wan has a lot to learn through the trilogy as we see by his off handed and very damning and cold statement to Padme about the kids, "I'm so sorry." What kind of s*** is that to say? Yes, Obi Wan had reckless moments but he's better by ANH. -----signature----- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must."
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WormieOnARampage Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 12:37pm Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Yeah, you could maybe save it by saying "Well, this just shows how confused the Jedi are." Obi knows why Anakin is wrong, but he can't say how. My take on it: Obi: Only a Sith thinks in absolutes! Anakin: Hell, yeah! <ZAM!!!!!!!> Obi (years later in a dusty hut on Tatooine): Hm, maybe he had a point there...
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Darth_Aussie Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/24/05 3:45am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" -- George W Bush Different people will interprete this line in different ways: - People who hate Bush and/or think he's stupid will think he means something like 'join me while I conquer the Middle East and kill all the Muslims in the name of freedom, etc'. - People who support/respect Bush will interprete it as meaning that every free/deomcratic country in the world should take a stand against terrorism in some way, shape, or form. Maybe that would mean military assistance; maybe just helping to stamp out terrorism in their area of the world. I, for one, favour the latter explanation. It means that the while free nations might not want / be able to help America out in EVERY area in the war on terrorism, they SHOULD do something to help. And I think that this has in NO WAY proved to be an "embarassing" quote. I mean, can anyone here name any Western democratic country that ISN'T helping stamp out terrorism in some way or other? Even the countries like France and Germany that "love to hate" America are stepping up to the plate quite well (though I still expect them to disagree with the US every now and then with respect to how the war on terror should be fought, etc). -----signature----- "Oh my God! UNCLE SLAM has just defeated OSAMA BIN ROTTEN! But wait, here comes Secretary of Hate, COLIN KAPOW! And he's dropping sanctions...by which I mean anvils!"
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Jedi_Master_Anakin Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 5/24/05 4:06am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I think it is GL pointing out that both sides of the spectrum (Jedi and Sith) are too opposite and absolute to survive. The Jedi are sbsolute in the sense that there can be no form of emotion and that they must "only serve others" (an altruistic, but ultimately unachievable goal) are absolutes. The Sith are the opposite. They should serve themselves and are dominated by emotion. I think Obi-Wan is saying that (from his point of view) anakin is unwilling to see a different point of view. The same is said later by Anakin to Obi-Wan. ("From my point of view the Jedi are evil.") I think George is creating and exploiting the flaws in both lines of thinking. Neither of them are willing to compromise ideology (at least at that time) Therefore, both had to be destroyed for the force to be in balance. Just a thought. -----signature----- no
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MatthewZ Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/24/05 6:24am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	>>>>Matthew 12:30 "Whomever is not with me, is against me. Whomever does not gather, scatters." More likely where Lucas got the line in question than a George Bush speech. >>Thank God someone remembered it because I forgot myself. Well done. The ironic thing about this passage is that in another gospel (Luke?) it reads as.... "All those who are not against me, are with me." -----signature----- What I posted was true......from a certain point of view.
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FRANKTHERABBIT Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 5/24/05 6:37am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	What obi wan says is profound. Absolutes, when taken out of their proper context, tend to lock peoples thinking and not allow for doubt or even change. Dogma is another way to describe the way in which absolutes are expressed - often. What obi wan says is true. Only Sith deal in absolutes. If you are not for Anakin, you are against him. Black and white, no shades of gray. Obi Wan, on the other hand tries to reason with Anakin, get him to change. If Obi Wan was absolutist with regards to Anakin, he would have done all he could to destroy him, rather than attempt to bring him back from the darkside. If conservative republicans are getting uptight with ROTS equating SW with the current political situation in America, right now, maybe ROTS is indeed hitting pretty close to the mark and they recognise that a comparison is being made, one which Captain Obvious himself would be proud of. So what if Lucas is making a political statement? I personally, don't need SW to point out to me what kind of a person George Bush is - Dubya's actions are pretty obvious and hardly incongruous. My hope is that George Bush doesn't sit in office as long as Palpatine does. If that were the case, then we really should be praying for a Chosen One to bring balance to the Force... BTW: I'm not American. Like many in on this planet,I'm just someone who finds George Bush to be a clueless simpleton and Fox News to be an embarrassment. -----signature----- munch, munch... nibble, munch, nibble...
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Keith_Fisto Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/24/05 6:40am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	I would think that Lucas would stay away from tinkering with his life's work by throwing in political pop shots. Surely he's smarter than that. And if by the slightest chance there is an attempt to have Palpatine represent a "Bush-type character", it failed miserably. Actually, when I first heard this garbage about a "political message" in ROTS in was from a politically liberal, left-leaning AP writer stating that "Last year we had Farenheit 911, this year Revenge of the Sith"....barf bags open here ! Give me a break...
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Darth-Fatalis Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 5/24/05 6:42am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Context is very important. Anakin says "If your not for me then you are against me" or SOMETHING like that. The Jedi had been tolerating other Jedi who held different views of the war for a long time. Until Dooku revealed himself as a Sith they were even tolerant of him.
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darth_java Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 5/24/05 7:03am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	By DarthMannis: Obi-Wan: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil." Anakin: "From the Jedi point of view! From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Obi-Wan: "Well, Then you are lost!" Obi-Wan is using an "absolute" way of thinking here. In fact, he completely judges Anakin here in an absolute way. The terms "evil" and "lost" are important here. There is no way to get around this when dealing with Good vs. Evil and just plain logical discourse. The funny thing is now Anakin seems to be taking a more relativistic point of view by referring to different perspectives...although we know that is not really true. Was George trying to show Obi-Wan being inconsistent on this point? Maybe, since we all know Anakin comes back to the good side later in the story, but when it comes down to it you really can not escape "absolutes". I agree with DarthMannis here. If you watch ROTJ when Luke is on Degobah, Obi-Wan and Yoda keep telling him he must kill Vader. They are being absolutists and they don't even realise it. I don't think anyone can logically argue against the fact that living in a "black or white" world (ie. You're either with us or against us) is very narrow and leads to very bad things. But people on this board are correct when they say the Jedi are just as guilty of that as the Sith. Except for Luke! Luke goes against his teachings, against the Dogma of the Jedi order by not killing Vader. Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader, Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, and THE EMPEROR wanted Luke to kill Vader. The difference is that the emperor knew that doing so would lead Luke to the dark side while Yoda and Obi-Wan were convinced it was for the "Good" side. The emperor was right and Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong. Luke knew the right thing to do. Yes his father was a Sith. Yes, he had turned to the dark side. But that doesn't mean he HAD to be killed. Luke saw the good in his father and realized that his father was an exception. The emperor, was not. This is what makes it a "grey" issue. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed, "All Sith must be killed. They are all evil and non-redeemable." Luke realized this was a narrow vision and he proved them wrong. In this example, the emperor was irredeemable, but Vader could be brought back. [advanced apologies for political rant. Please ignore if you don't want to hear politics]. Now as far as all the political B.S. (ie. "this is 'liberal' propoganda), my stance on it is Bush has said what he's said. Lucas wrote what he wrote. If you're finding similarities between them and you don't like what you see, don't blame Lucas. Anikan's character was not acting "out of character" by saying "you're either with me or you're my enemy". The emperor (a sith) used a similar phrase, "If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed." This is the way of the sith. If you don't like the fact that Bush does have a similar philosophy, I suggest you re-evaluate your loyalties rather than scapegoat Lucas and "the media" for reporting what Bush CHOSE to say. I consider myself a moderate person. I've voted for both democrats and republicans in my life, and as a centrist I have to say that our current government is a joke. A very scary, sad joke. That's not Lucas' fault, and it's not "the media's" fault, it's our own fault because we voted for them. Most people today totally misuse the words "conservative" and "liberal" and I'd like to think that star wars fans are smarter than to reduce themselves to such propoganda and scapegoating. Everytime we do that (whether you're liberal or conservative, democrat or republican) we are playing into the hands of the very people that want us all fighting each other so they can gain more power through our infighting. It's all a game to them. Come on guys, let's take a lesson from Luke. Let's work together rather than tear each other down and restore balance to our country. There is a very big similarity between Star Wars and today's america. But it's not Empire=republicans and Jedi/Rebellion=Democrats. It's Empire=government and Jedi/Rebellion="the people". I'm not saying, "take up arms", but we can use our voices and our vote to bring our country back together.
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AliJor-Starshadow Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 5/24/05 7:03am Subject: RE: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes..."
	Wait, are some of you saying that starting a war to take over the galaxy, killing off all the Jedi and ordering Anakin to kill Younglings is NOT evil? The line Obi-Wan used simply meant that the Sith do not accept co-existence with anything, only domination. That IS the Sith way. The Jedi learn to adapt with the galaxy, to the very Force itself. His statement doesn't mean that they never EVER feel an "absolute" way about certain things, it means that the way they live isn't "absolute". The Sith way is "absolute" evil. "Absolute" domination. An "absolute" quest for power. A "my way or the highway" type of existence. That's what he meant. And yes, he takes shots at Bush because if you actually follow what has happened over the past 3 years, this war in the middle east mirrors what Palpatine did in the PT.
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