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Author	Topic: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
Lord_Rebel Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 12:13pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Drink_Droid yours was an excellent post. Some things from your post that have the most meaning to me: ------------------------------------------------ "Yes it's true that Palpatine manipulated Anakin, but the Jedi brought upon themselves their own downfall, A) for trusting Clones who were bred to not have a single individual thought other than who has control over them, B) losing their path out of Fear, C) arrogance and loss of touch with the reality of good and evil in everyone, and expecting humans to have no flaws (Anakin). ------------------------------------------ ^^^Such and excellent point, and one i am continually reminding people of: The Jedi had as much to do with this tragedy as Palpatine and Annakin. The Jedi became arrogant. If you dont believe that then watch episondes I, II and III again and tell me that EVERY single scene of the Jedi Council is not set up to make the Jedi look arrogant. They sit in a circle at the top of the tallest building, looking like they have some measure of control over the Galaxy and what befalls it. ------------------------------------------------ The conflict in Anakin is from his childhood being a slave in a galactic republic supposedly bound together by the justice and honour, where Jedi can or will do nothing to alleviate human suffering. Qui-gon's big mistake was not freeing Anakin's mother. By FORCE if necessary. Evil exists when good does nothing. ---------------------------------------------- ^^^ Here again people overlook the power of this irony. The Jedi spend all this time acting like they are such powerfull ambassadors for what is right and what is wrong. They make all these decisions with no room for question. They tell Annakin that 'Compassion' is the cornerstone of the Jedi, yet they refuse to use their power to save his mother?? No wonder he is conflicted.... --------------------------------------------- Yoda and Obiwan would do anything to save what they loved, the Jedi Order. Anakin loved a person more than a set of codes: an impersonal, unjust, and inhuman ideal that NO Jedi could live up to. Not Qui-gon, not Yoda, not Mace, not Obi-wan. Compassion? Bah! they chose when to show their compassion based on their own motives and loyalties. How is this any different from Anakin chosing to protect Palpatine from Mace? When Mace was glowering over Palpatine, exactly like the Emperor glowered over Luke in Rotj. ----------------------------------------------- ^^ Exactly. Yoda and Mace are blinded by the beuracracy and stringent Order that the Jedi have engulfed themselves in. Thats why Yoda ran at the end of RoTS, he was the only one who recognized that everything the Jedi had been doing was wrong. That maybe he needed to get away and rethink what the Jedi had considered the so called "rules of the Order." --------------------------------------------- Having no mercy is not the Light Side of the Force. The Jedi failed because of their own fear of death, their own jelousy for control of the universe. Their arrogance at expecting others to live up to ideals No one was living up to. How many people have to die for an ideal? ------------------------------------------ ^^Again an excellent point. Yoda considered Obi-1 to be flawed, he considered Qui-Gon (sp?) to be flawed, and he considred Annakin to be flawed. The Jedi had come to epect more of people than what should be expected. The compassion for each other was gone, replaced by a stringent set of ideals and rules. The attitude towards Annakin when telling him he is not to be made Master is HUGE in showing this part of the SW story. There was NO passion towards Annakin on that council, only, this is our decision and everything we say is final, do not bother to argue. Even the looks they all give each other when Annakin protests are looks of arrogance and almost pity (in a bad type of way). I was in one of the harshest areas of the US Armed forces, and we were not allowed to question orders. But if the people above us felt we were conflicted over what we were told to do, or sensed any type of attitude problem with what was going on, we would be asked BEHIND closed doors by those close to us; Our squad leader or platton leader "what is wrong" or "how can i explain this to you so you understand why we are asking this of you." Annakin was told something flat out and he was supposed to just chew on it, cuss that is how Jedi were "supposed" to be. Palpatine is the main villan in SW. But the first 3 movies now show that the Jedi were not just some mystical people who defended all that was good, as we were led to believe in 4,5, and 6. They were part of the problem. And those who believe the prophecy was only fullfilled when Vader thru Sidius over the edge in RoTJ your wrong. The 'Balance' that they speak of in SW is partially acheived by the "trimming" down of the Jedi order by the Sith. It was a neccassary tragedy as the Jedi had become too powerfull.
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Go-Mer-Tonic Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 5/22/05 12:18pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	According to Lucas, it was acheived when the Sith were eliminated by Anakin in ROTJ. Maybe you are wrong. The reason Obi-Wan didn't strike Anakin down in the end, the reason he had to watch him burn in agony, is because once a Jedi disarms his opponent, they aren't supposed to continue the attack. When Anakin made his final lunge at Obi-Wan, he cut off his limbs as a defensive measure, but once he was no longer a threat, it would have gone against the Jedi code to have "finished him". -----signature----- "...that’s not my job, to make people like my movies. They either like them or they don’t. That’s completely out of my hands.” -Lucas "At least I will have finished what I set out to do, and at least they will have been good to me." -Lucas
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Lord_Rebel Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 12:20pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Um yeah the "Prophecy was fullfilled" when Vader destroyed the last sith. Um you do know that fullfilling a prophecy or say a promise can happen over a period of more than one or even several events????
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Darth-Roor Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 12:36pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	"Having no mercy is not the Light Side of the Force. The Jedi failed because of their own fear of death, their own jelousy for control of the universe. Their arrogance at expecting others to live up to ideals No one was living up to. How many people have to die for an ideal? " I agree with you when you say that the Jedi failed but not because of a fear of death or their own jelousy- the Jedi failed beacuse of their ARROGANCE. If Ani would have told the truth of how he was feeling about everything then perhaps things would have been diffrent. I think he was scared becasue he was under the influance that he might be expelled for his misconduct, this being the case well then who does he talk to about whats going on- Palp- beacuse he is not a Jedi and does not have the same narrow minded out look as they do, more understanding I guess?? -----signature----- "I HATE YOU"
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jedijake719 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 12:37pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Question: Since Anakin/Vader did all he did to save Padme, why does he continue to have the will to live after realizing that he killed Padme?
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Maphisto86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 1:01pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	I liked the way it turned out... In my point of view Anakin turned when he helped kill Mace Windu. Even though he cries "what have I done !?" there is no turning back at that point. Ever since the slaughter of the Tusken tribe in Episode II his fear of the consequences of his actions makes him more and more desperate. Desperate people do desperate things... When he helped kill Windu it seemed to him he had nothing to lose except Padme and Palpatine offered the power to "save her" . Of course Palpatine is a lying SOB but Anikan doesen't know that. I think Palpatine could forsee such events before they happen and he probably knew about Anakins dreams. As for Anakin's will to live after Padme had died... that's a good question. I geuss after he realized his fate he didn't want to die now that he had the power he had sought for so long. Also he really wasen't Anakin anymore... he was Darth Vader, a dark lord who could mold the galaxy how he saw fit. The temptation would be too much to resist, and who knows... may'be he thought he could somehow find a way to bring Padme back from the dead or some other delusion. Perhaps it was also his hatred for Obi-Wan. He knew that his former master was alive somewhere and his lust for revenge could have driven him to create a new life as Darth Vader. He probably was so selfish that he blamed Obi-wan and not himself for Padme's death. Also by the time he found out he had a son after the events of Episode IV then that would be another ambition for him to follow once Obi-Wan was dead.... Even though by the end of Episode III Anakin Skywalker had become a monster... I still felt sad for what happened to him. He could have been saved prior to the events of Windu's confrontation with Palpatine but afterward's hell no ! Part of the blame for Anakin's fall is not just his own selfish desires but also the deceit around him. Part of it goes to Obi-Wan and the Jedi but over all Palpatine's machinations are to blame. He was one evil genuis. Look at how he plotted and went through several scenarios through Episodes I through III. It made me look at all the old characters in a new light but especially so for Palpatine. To me Palpatine is the greatest villian in Star Wars because of his evil genuisness.... and Ian McDermaid's superb acting. So anyway, Anakin became a monster because of fear, desperation and a lust for power that was at first meant to help others but degenerated into selfishness. The path of a Jedi appears to be one of selfless love and compassion for the galaxy and the whole but Anakin could not embrace that path which is a life without reward when all he expereinced was fear and suffering ( ie: being a slave, etc ). So that leaves only one more path to follow.... -----signature----- Excellent critique of the prequels: http://www.lardbiscuit.com/cinema.html
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Swifty2513 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 11:11pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	After seeing ROTJ I had always woundered why Vader didn't get rid of the Emperor a long time ago and take control of the galaxy. He seemed much stronger than that wrinkly old man. But after seeing ROTS it all makes sense. Anakin has nothing left when he truly turns to the dark side. After learning of Padme's death and shaking things up a little you see a smirk on Palpentine's face, and that's the point where Anakin becomes his puppet. I think it is very sad, because it was all a trap of destiny. Yes obviously he made some big mistakes to end up like that, but that's the tragedy. Everyone makes mistakes, but no one saw it comming because 'he was the chosen one'. Like Obi-Wan said, "Anakin, I have failed you." The jedi didn't realize until it was too late that they had misinterpreted the prophecy, and at that point Anakin is at a point where he can't turn back, and he won't be saved until years down the line when Luck brings out the good in him. It is ironic that part of his fall was a mistrust from others due to too much faith in himself, but in the end all he ever needed was someone elses faith in him. I was really happy that Padme said, "there is still good in him" just as she died. Also, it's arguable that the tradegy behind Vader makes him a stronger villian. Does anyone else wounder what could have happened to Palpentine to make him so evil, or do we just assume he was born that way (like a satan figure). Anyways, I think the sad element of Anakin's turn makes him a stronger character.
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DarthRaver Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/22/05 11:25pm Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Awesome thread guys. Good stuff... Props to the guy who said there were thousands at Padme's funeral, and only Luke at Anakin's, very sad indeed.
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DarthDuckie Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 5/23/05 12:23am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	This is a really cool thread. Yeah, like a lot of others, Vader has always been my favourite film character and ROTS has reinforced that feeling. He's the classic tragic hero really isn't he. The most powerful and the most pathetic all rolled into one. Whatever any of the nay-sayers may say, Star Wars is great and Vader is great.
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voodoopuuduu Title: Classic Trilogy Trivia Host Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 5/23/05 12:45am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Don't give me that garbage that he was forced into it. Mace gave him a choice. Mace was going against the jedi code/teachings. He gave Anakin a choice between a rock and a hard place, the frying pan or the fire, etc. -----signature----- Winner CT Trivia Challenge 44, 54 Winner PT Trivia Challenge 10 , 13, 14, 17 Joint-Winner CT Challenge 49 and 50, PT Challange 18
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vikingjedi1 Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/23/05 1:13am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	IMO Anakin wasn't tricked or manipulated by anybody. His own selfishness caused him to fall. In TPM the only thing he cared about is becoming a Jedi. He left his mother behind around the first parts of the movie and never mentions her again. After he finds out Qui-gon is dead the first thing he asks is "Am I still going to be trained?" In AOTC (10 YEARS LATER) he finally goes to look for his mother and surprise, he's a month too late. Why didn't he go earlier? As a result he slaughters every single sand person in the village including the children. Other times in AOTC he speaks of keeping people from dying and being a ruler of the galaxy while blaming Obi-wan for his problems saying that "he's holding me back". He also repeatedly disregards what Obi-wan tries to teach him. In ROTS he decapitates Dooku with no remorse (only because Obi-wan is unconsious at the time). He has a dream of Padme' dying and instead of getting help from Obi-wan like Padme' suggests, he hides the truth and formulates a plan to keep it from happening. Later in ROTS he finds out that Palpatine is the Sith they have been looking for and instead of doing his duty as a Jedi he just leaves him there because the Emperor tells him he could teach him new powers. A few minutes later he interupts Mace Windu doing what he should have done earlier (bringing the Emperor to justice) and instead of doing the right thing Anakin helps the Emperor kill Mace. For a slight moment he has some remorse for what he has done but 30 seconds later his selfishness takes over again and he gets on his knees and pledges his loyalty to the Emperor. From that point Anakin CHOOSES to murder the Jedi and he leads the Emperor's armies and wipes them out. He wasn't manipulated, he chose to disregard the Jedi teachings to serve his own personal goal of keeping Padme' from dying. In other words he viewed Padme's life to be more important than everybody else's lives combined. Again, thats pure selfishness. In the end his real goal of power is revealed when he tells Padme' about becoming the ruler of the galaxy with her at his side. When she objects he almost kills her. (He does this again to Luke in ESB). Instead of taking the blame for all of his mistakes he blames Obi-wan instead. He even goes so far as saying that he hates him when he's dying. The only time Anakin shows any REAL remorse for what he has done is when he is told his actions caused Padme' to die. But does that stop him? NO! For the next 25+ years he leads the Emperors armies and is responsible for billions of deaths. That proves his main goal all along was ruling the galaxy (remember he offers that to Luke in ESB). And what about ROTJ? Was he a CHANGED person? No. He watched his son being killed and only then did he stop the Emperor. It wasn't to save the lives of the people in the galaxy, it was his own selfishness to save his son (who he loved - good parallel to Padme'). Redemption? No way. He never learned from his mistakes and his entire life was only about his own self serving desires being fulfilled. I felt sorry for Vader in ROTJ a long time ago, but after watching ROTS any sympathy I had for his character is gone. -----signature----- Minnesota Vikings - Future 2006 Superbowl Champions http://vikingjedi.tripod.com
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mjerome3 Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 5/23/05 1:25am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Anakin was gravely manipulated. It was sad how he couldn't see past the Chancellor's lies, as well as his own quest for more power. Sure, the Jedi slighted him a great deal, but he should have taken it in stride instead of taking it personal. The Chancellor only used this to his advantage. The part that got me was when the Chancellor appointed Anakin to deal with Greivous, but was overruled by the JC. Palpatine knew the Jedi would do this and he knew it would frustrate and aggrevate Anakin more, thus making him lean toward him for more guidance. Palpatine was a conniving bastard but it was too bad Anakin couldn't see past is deception until Episode 6. -----signature----- May the Force be with you- Luke Skywalker May the Force be with you- Han Solo May the Force be with you- Qui-Gon Jinn May the Force be with you- Anakin Skywalker The Force will be with you...always- Obi-Wan Kenobi
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wee_jedi Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 5/23/05 2:07am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Awesome thread, I too agree with many here, I have little or no sympathy for Anakin Skywalker after watching EP III. Sure Sidious is a Master of deception and manipulation, and the Jedi may have lost their way a little, but really Anakin's selfishness and desire for more power blinds him of the obvious. Skywalker could have chosen the corrent path and in doing so would restore balance, keep his family amd become a wise and powefull Jedi Master - everything he ever wanted, but he threw this all away (G L makes this clear in the movie and Kudos to him!), no I have little sympathy for Vader at all. -----signature----- The force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet - Darth Vader
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BlutEngel Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 3:16am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Obi Wan should have done more to make his death painful. If revenge is part of the Jedi's code that is.
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capone999 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/23/05 7:26am Subject: RE: Now I See Vader In A Whole New Light - Sad Opinion
	Anakin is completley to blame, he deserved to burn, and i am glad that he didnt die of his injuries, he should be made to suffer for what he did. He wanted to leave tantooine to be a jedi, he should of known what he was letting himself in for. When they say no attachments they mean NO attachments, did he think it was an empty piece of advice. And i despise him for the way he acts infront of his peers, he's like a whiney kid. i think that anyone can avoid being manipulated, he should of had a bit of selfcontrol. follow obi-wans example i say. anakin was scared of hard work, he always wanted an easier way to do things. im sure if he carried on his jedi teachings he would of unlocked some force secrets to avoid padme death.
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