Author Topic: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
Greedo_forever 
Registered: May '05
14726_Greedo
Date Posted: 7/15/05 12:36pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
darth-sinister posted:
Anakin: "I thought you said that we couldn't fall in love. That it would destroy us."

Padme: "Our lives are already about to be destroyed."


She wasn't whistling dixie.


Riiiiiight... I forgot about that.

Okay, nevermind what I just said in the above post.

Dumb idea trying to rationalize things with classic literature.

 

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FRANKTHERABBIT 
Registered: May '04
23979_Han
Date Posted: 7/15/05 7:26pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
I agree with Neo Baggins 100 per cent! happy

Padme became so ineffectual. Alarm bells should have been ringing earlier in the saga, much earlier. The fact her husband is worrying so badly over a dream he had that she was going to die, consumming him so fully is not healthy, even by jedi standards. The Padme that we saw in TPM and AOTCs was a fighter - sure, people may say that the reason this disappears off later in ROTS is due to the tragic direction of her character, and that this portrayal is entirely suitable, apt and fitting - however, I don't buy it. It came across as stilted, and cumbersome. I find her lack of intuition and reluctance to investigate things for herself to be a failure - although, I give her the credit for heading to Mustafar to find her husband, that was the only well-written piece of direction in Padme's role, the only consistent element to carry-over from the previous two movies.

The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker should have been just that - his demise of character, not hers. Her strength of character would have made an excellent foil - a stark contrast - to his lack thereof, or his fatal flaw - in this case, his fear of losing Padme.

Padme is barely a role-model to fictional movie characters, let alone a viable role model for any real-life context or frame of reference.

Even Clegg Flintstone provides a stronger, more consistent character than Padme ever attained in ROTS.

happy

EDIT:

"Not all mothers have that natural instinct. Some ignore it all together. How else do you explain abortions, adoptions, child abandonment, child abuse and so on? There may not be Imperial entanglements, but there are other factors in real life that detour from the love of her children." unquote.

Some of your examples are problematic - issues of Abortion, adoption, etc... do not quantify levels of so-called "natural instinct". I suppose you might lump under than rather broad umbrella, "3-day blues", a condition that follows many mothers following the birth of a child, in which the mother, often three days after birth, becomes seemingly depressed, sad, melancholic due to the hormonal shift that occurs when the mother begins to produce milk for the child. This "shift" can result in some mothers crying for the duration of a day, while the body chemistry adjusts to this new phase. Often "3-day blues" is mistaken for Post-Natal Depression, and sometimes, external onlookers have a hard time understanding the nature of this phase - however, it is perfectly natural and is just another aspect of the birth process.

In Padme's case, we see no evidence of any inherent lack of maternal instinct or disparative seperation of this facet from her demeanor. There is no evidence to suggest, even at the point of birth, that she has no maternal instinct, or natural instinct, as its been termed by many on these boards. With no evidence of a lack thereof, it is conjecture to speculate that Padme was lacking this. However, the problem arises out of the way in which she dies - giving up the will to live - a choice, not a fatal certainty, as she has nothing wrong with her, physically. What makes this even more problematic is that it is suggested in very vague terms, and seems completely at odds with Padmes' fighting instinct, which defines her will throughout the PT.

happy I don't care if her hubby has turned to the darkside. Padme's and Ani's "love" was never set in concrete. It surprises me that as soon as it seemingly goes to custard, she gives up on living - they do not share a symbiotic relationship - no evidence to suggest this, so I don't buy her demise. It not only defies her character, but it also seems rather cumbersome.

happy My two cents...

 

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DARTHCLANDESTINE 
Registered: May '05
23528_Jango Fett
Date Posted: 7/15/05 8:49pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
She practically fell in love with Anakin over night

Yes, in Ep. II maybe but in Ep. III she's with his kids. She gives up her own life, but lets the kids live, with Obi Wan by her side. "im not afraid to die", "and the baby?". "Obi Wan cares about us".

 

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Dark Lady Mara 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '99
7822_Darth Maul
Date Posted: 7/15/05 9:53pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
The Tusken Raiders are a hideous race of murderous creatures that deserve to die(In my honest opinion).

I don't think Padme would agree with you there, and in hindsight her willingness to forgive Anakin for the slaughter in AotC was the first sign of her being blinded by love. Remember that in TPM, she reached out to the gungans when no one else believed they were capable of doing anything to help. Most people seemed to think the gungans were barbarians or somehow inferior to the other residents of Naboo, even Qui-Gon, but Padme had faith in them. She seems to be someone who cares about all forms of life, and I doubt she would agree that Tuskens are animals who deserve to be slaughtered.

((Padme's the opposite of a role model, really. She's a tragic figure from the same mold as some of the women in Shakespeare who are destroyed because of the men in their lives.))

Exactly...while factoring that the men in their lives were also destroyed, LIKE Darth Vader and Padme.


Yeah, that's true. It occurs to me that in some ways, the PT is very Shakespearian. Anakin and Padme's romance kind of reminds me of Romeo and Juliet's, a love affair rushed into too hastily by young people overwhelmed by lust. They also remind me of Macbeth because we start out with a very strong-willed woman, but over time she fades away as she experiences doubts and sees what a monster she's made of her husband.

Anakin was hardly a wife beater who came home every night, calling Padmé a fat ho and smacking her if she didn't bring his beer fast enough. He turned on her only once and that was a) after he had become Darth Vader and b) because he thought Padmé betrayed him. It's not a justification of his actions, but he was not the same guy anymore at that point.

That's a great mental image, Anakin slouching on the sofa screaming at Padme to bring his beer faster because he's had a long day slaughtering Jedi children. tongue

Seriously, I agree with you that Anakin was a very different person by the end of RotS, but I also think there were some warning signs that Padme unfortunately missed. Anakin's "have faith, my love" speech creeps me out every time I hear it, and if I were Padme, I would have stopped right then and said "Who are you, and what did you do with my Anakin?"

Not everyone feels the way most mothers do for their children. There are mothers who place themselves over their children, time and again.

Yes, but is Padme supposed to be one of those people? She even says in AotC that she's always wanted to have a family. She really cares about her children and was looking forward to giving birth - hence her dialogue in the hairbrushing scene in which she says she wants to go early to fix up the baby's room. She's never before showed a willingness to abandon her work on Coruscant for anything, so we know this is important to her. Hell, she was willing to give up her career for her kids!

Take the droids "will to live" line out, give Padme an actual physical threat to her life, then have her die, but not before fighting to live for her Children. Everything makes sense, her character comes full circle to when she had a spine, the scene is now dramatic, and the story remains on the same path.

I completely agree. I understand that Lucas wanted to add a mystical aspect to her death by having the droid say there was no physical reason for it, but it does mess up her character really badly. If she had been badly injured but struggled to survive long enough for them to induce labor, most of us in this thread would probably be praising her.

Edit:

When did she stand by him when he became evil? He hadn't turned evil when he killed the tusken raiders

Uh, so then why was Qui-Gon yelling "no" and Yoda so disturbed by what he sensed?

 

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DARTHCLANDESTINE 
Registered: May '05
23528_Jango Fett
Date Posted: 7/15/05 10:13pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
Yoda so disturbed by what he sensed

He sensed Anakin in pain.

 

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NeoBaggins 
Registered: Oct '03
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 7/15/05 11:40pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much

Incredible posts, Frank and Mara. And Frank, there is a good portion of your comments in that post that can only be discribed as profouned. Wow.

"Yeah, you're right. I get WAY too carried away with some of these threads. I apologize for the "blind" thing. But I still think that people are making a mistake analysing this film by comparing it to harsh, cold reality."

Don't sweat it. Being cool enough to apologize is infinitely honorable in my book. Comparing these aspects to harsh reality is something that the story has already asked us to do. Among the Wookies, Lighsabers, and PodRacers- there is betrayal, love, hate, anger, deception, death, murder, and vengence. These are elements of harsh realism, and Lucas' intent is to convey his human tragedy through actual human traits. So, saying that Padme has abandonned her Children is something that Lucas should have considered ( if he cares about this particular reaction ) before inserting realistically serious themes then all of a sudden presenting a children's book theme. He can't turn Padme into Sleeping Beauty after displaying the dark elements that lead up to this moment. He must realize what losing her will to live may look like.

"Not all mothers have that natural instinct. Some ignore it all together. How else do you explain abortions, adoptions, child abandonment, child abuse and so on? There may not be Imperial entanglements, but there are other factors in real life that detour from the love of her children."

Well, aparently, in this case, the reason is that Padme held her love/obsession for Anakin in higher regard than she does her children. You mention "child abandonment" as a real life factor, and Lucas has inserted real life themes into his films, so on some level, we DO agree.

"She wasn't whistling dixie.'

She was refering to what was immediately about to happen to them. She was refering to the execution attempt in the arena. Nothing more. If anything, seeing that the clonewars had started and many Jedi had been lost, her position at the fireplace should have been re-enforced by these events making her see that a relationship with Anakin was definitely unwise. She chooses to marry him at the most critical point in both their careers against all that she had previously said. This is the begining of a decline in the characters rationale and dignity.

"I don't care if her hubby has turned to the darkside. Padme's and Ani's "love" was never set in concrete. It surprises me that as soon as it seemingly goes to custard, she gives up on living - they do not share a symbiotic relationship - no evidence to suggest this, so I don't buy her demise. It not only defies her character, but it also seems rather cumbersome."

Exzactly.

 

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darth-sinister 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '01
24181_Palpatine Hologram
Date Posted: 7/15/05 11:54pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
Well, aparently, in this case, the reason is that Padme held her love/obsession for Anakin in higher regard than she does her children. You mention "child abandonment" as a real life factor, and Lucas has inserted real life themes into his films, so on some level, we DO agree.

In a sense, yes. It does seem rather harsh, but Lucas wanted to get across that Padme was the bad mother. Something that we were told back when AOTC was being made, which was that there's a good mother and a bad mother. The good mother is Shmi and it seems the bad mother is Padme, in a sense. She sucumbs to her emotions, only it destroys her in a different way than it does Anakin. Hence Leia has to redeem Padme's memory, but showing that she can love and not fall apart. She comes close to losing it when Luke reveals everything to her. She starts to fall apart emotionally, but she doesn't go all the way. She pulls back and becomes detached enough to avoid her mother's fate.

"She wasn't whistling dixie.'

She was refering to what was immediately about to happen to them. She was refering to the execution attempt in the arena. Nothing more. If anything, seeing that the clonewars had started and many Jedi had been lost, her position at the fireplace should have been re-enforced by these events making her see that a relationship with Anakin was definitely unwise. She chooses to marry him at the most critical point in both their careers against all that she had previously said. This is the begining of a decline in the characters rationale and dignity.


Lucas said that their marriage would ultimately destroy them, which is why he had those lines in AOTC. He was foreshadowing their eventual fates, which are connected to their inappropriate relationship.

 

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NeoBaggins 
Registered: Oct '03
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 7/16/05 1:46am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much

I guess we agree then. I didn't know that this was Lucas actual intent with Padme's character (the bad Mother) and it is certainly the way it comes across onscreen to me. So I don't see what the confusion is about when it is said that she was weak for not choosing life. I guess Lucas felt "the will to live" element gave the character the appearence of choice needed to display just how cowardly she really was. In light of that, showing her fight to live for her children would have went against trying to convey the bad Mother image. I guess it's official then: Padme had become just as selfish for obsessed love as Anakin, then she chose death and child abandonment when love was lost.

 

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Jedi-Queen 
Registered: Feb '05
23715_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 7/16/05 4:45am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
I think there's a big diff b/w choosing death and no longer having
the strength to fight for life. As much as I didn't like the whole
lost the will to live thing I don't think she made a conscious choice
to die. I think we're supposed to see she just didn't have any fight
left in her. If it wasn't for that one stupid line from the med droid
we'd all assume her injuries and diff birth did her in.
I wish GL had of left that line out.

 

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NeoBaggins 
Registered: Oct '03
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 7/16/05 5:20am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much

Yeah. The loss of will implies choice and control over her condition, wich is nonexistent according to the robot. Saying that nothing is wrong with her doesn't help this aspect much either. Who knows, Lucas may plan to tincker with the prequel trilogy and remove the robots Dialog or change it. But then he might lose the bad Mother quiting aspect if that's what he was going for. I wish I had the DVD, well, the official DVD so I can hear the commentary on this.

It was funny seeing ROTS with a friend of mine who is pretty much a casual movie-goer in general; He doesn't know Mustard from Mustafar. Near the birth scene he leaned over to me and said "Awe, man, She's going to die... HE killed her." I didn't say anything and kept watching. When the droid comes out and gives his diagnosis, he goes "What!?", and the lady in front of us started laughing. I thought only the fans would pay attention to that. It was funny to see a non-fanatic respond like that. I figured people that wern't huge fans would accept pretty much whatever happened in the film.

 

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am-pm 
Registered: Jun '05
7901_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 7/16/05 5:57am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
As much as some people have given pretty good arguments about Padme being heroic and unselfish and whatnot, I just don't see it. It is stated that she lost the will to live, that is not ambiguous!

I think her character is very weak. She is not the only person that has lost everything. Obi-Wan lost everything. He lost his entire life's work, all of his friends, including his best friend, his master, his home, his entire reason for being and did he lay down and cry and give up? Um, no. He gathered up his strength and did what had to be done, despite his own heartbreak. He faced his best friend for the greater good. He took her child and watched over him, waiting for the time when he could take action, while SHE died. She is the one who actually had something to live for, her two children and the husband that she sensed good in. But, it was all too hard for her and she bailed. I don't see any sign of her "sacrificing" anything, she just gave up and relied on the others around her to carry on.

Surely, she could have realized that the BEST hope of ever turning Anakin back, presuming he could be turned which she believed, would be her?

Anyway, my opinion no Padme is not a role model for anyone to emulate, then again, thats fine because I don't think she is supposed to be. Girls don't have to look up only to girls as role models either, they can look up to any heroic character. And there are only two heroic truly characters in Star Wars...Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

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KnightWriter 
Title:
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Registered: Nov '01
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/7/06 8:45am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
Moving up.

 

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Go-Mer-Tonic 
Registered: Aug '99
8199_Han Solo
Date Posted: 1/7/06 9:10am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
Padme was having a soul crushing few days. Remember, the events that transpire in ROTS last less than two weeks. In that time she finally reveals she is pregnant to Anakin, He starts "acting funny" and she feels he's not being entirely honest with her about how he feels. When she talks politics with Anakin, there is this growing tension brought on by their differing views.

Then suddenly the Jedi Temple is under attack, and Anakin shows up to tell her the Jedi tried to take over the galaxy and he had to help wipe them out.

Then Obi-Wan shows up to tell her Anakin has gone to the dark side, that Palpatine, the guy she helped put in office way back in TPM, who she confided in the whole time, was the Master Sith himself.

Her whole life she had been a pawn. Palpatine had used her unending desire to help her people to undermine the democracy of the Old Republic, to put an end to everything Padme believed in.

She sees Anakin who has turned into the personification of everything she was against, in a setting that could pass for hell.

Check Please!

 

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Darth-Natas 
Registered: Jan '06
22350_Evil Eye
Date Posted: 1/7/06 11:10am Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
thread starter posted:
I always loved Leia in the OT because she was a strong female character. THen came along the PT, and there was another one - a queen at a young age, a fighter, putting her life at risk, all qualities that make for a strong leader. However, in RotS, she kinda goes *boom* when Anakin turns bad.

Yes, it might have been the hormones. Having never been pregnant, I don't know what that can do to you. But still - was anyone else sorely dissapointed by the reactions that Padmé had and the way she dealt with what was going on?

I completely agree that both Leia and Padme are strong female characters, but I take the position that they are also both good role models for women in today’s world.

I disagree about your suggestion that she has a hormonal meltdown because she is pregnant…what Anakin did was very little different from infidelity. When 2 people establish a life and family together (which they most certainly were doing), infidelity (whether by man or woman), pretty well turns that world upside down overnight.



darth-sinister posted:
Yet another story of dying of a broken heart. "Giselle", the story of a nobleman who falls in love with a peasent girl, who is exposed as a liar by the gamekeeper, who is also in love with the girl. She dies of a broken heart at the end of the first act. Literature, plays, films, television are all rife with women dying of a broken heart. So Padme dying of a broken heart comes from such mediums.

In a sense, yes. It does seem rather harsh, but Lucas wanted to get across that Padme was the bad mother. Something that we were told back when AOTC was being made, which was that there's a good mother and a bad mother. The good mother is Shmi and it seems the bad mother is Padme, in a sense. She sucumbs to her emotions, only it destroys her in a different way than it does Anakin. Hence Leia has to redeem Padme's memory, but showing that she can love and not fall apart. She comes close to losing it when Luke reveals everything to her. She starts to fall apart emotionally, but she doesn't go all the way. She pulls back and becomes detached enough to avoid her mother's fate.

I agree that she died of a broken heart; but the other side of that coin is that Anakin is turned fully to the dark side by Sidious’s suggestion that he’d killed her (which though true, is not exactly like he presented the idea)…and essentially, Anakin turns fully to evil by breaking his own heart as well. You don’t see that in classic or modern mediums generally, and suggesting that women dying of broken hearts is somewhat cliché within our culture is a little misogynistic I think.

I also disagree about your suggestion that Padme is portrayed as a mad mother. First of all, all she actually is, is a pregnant mother…very little mothering skills to work with on that one. It isn’t like she’s a drug addict or street walker or anything, and she is genuinely happy to be carrying her true loves children.

To the contrary, Padme is portrayed as the quintessential successful modern woman: strong, confident, successful, and diplomatic…also very feminine and nurturing—not an easy assortment of qualities to wrap up into one package, to be sure. In contrast, Shmi represents more of a classical and traditional woman from societies' past…she’s even portrayed as a Virgin Mary sort of character, but poor and helpless. I think the implications of that on modern women is quite deliberate. Likewise to Padme, Leia is her mother’s daughter...also representative of the kind of self-independence and strength that provide modern women with an appropriate sort of role model for today’s day and age.

 

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SHAD0W-JEDI 
Registered: May '02
6636_Alf Tyranus
Date Posted: 1/7/06 2:13pm Subject: RE: Padmé as a role model for girls - uh, not so much
This debate... and others like it, in the sense that they deal with the nature of the Anakin/Padme romance... have been going on for a LONG time here, and I don't have any illusions that my perspective brings something unique to the table. That being said, I would like to take the opportunity to weigh in for a bit...

I think Lucas did a LOT to "redeem" Padme in ROTS. And yes, I am among those who think she needs redemption.

...Not for falling in love with Anakin - although I DO think that is hardly the traditional romantic story. Anakin is one VERY troubled young man, and Padme sees his temper, his need for control, his resentment of the Jedi, and his volcanic rage, quite clearly... and overlooks it, excuses it, and rationalizes it. In fact, she, sadly, CONTRIBUTES to Anakin's fall by making it easier for him to rationalize his failures and shortcomings, to avoid them rather than confront them, to avoid the immediate consequences of them rather than face them. While Anakin himself KNOWS he should be better than this, Padme offers excuses. However, people fall in love despite their rational selves, quite often. Men and women DO fall in love with people who are bad for them. Who are, for that matter, just plain BAD. It is not a trait that is especially comforting, and it is not one that I think we should defend as admirable in any way, but it IS hardly unique to Padme. So... for falling in love with Anakin, I think we can, perhaps, not judge Padme TOO harshly. Perhaps.

Not do I think Padme needs redemption for letting Anakin KNOW that she HAD fallen in love, although this is clearly the moment that lets the genie out of the bottle for good, that opens Pandora's Box. The confession was one that was brought forth only when she truly felt they were both about to die. It is easy, I think, for the fans (including me) to forget that when Padme was about to enter the arena on Geonosis, it was entirely reasonable for her to believe she and/or Anakin were NEVER going to come out of there alive. We "know" they survive, and I think that colors our perspective somewhat. Padme believes, with good reason, that death is moments away. She can see no harm in this deathbed confession (although I think we can make a case that she is not entirely correct in this thinking...what if Anakin was to survive the arena, while Padme did not?)... and for this, I think we can reasonably temper judgment.

But for agreeing to MARRY Anakin... here, finally, is Padme's time to face the music. To make the fateful choice. This, for me, is a moment close to Anakin's moment with Mace and Sidious. The time when finally, one must CHOOSE. Choose right or wrong. And Padme make the wrong choice. Not simply the INCORRECT choice, but the morally wrong choice. And she KNOWS it. Even if she can put aside the Tusken slaughter (which is a HUGE "something" to put aside!), Padme KNOWS that when she chooses to ALLOW an ongoing romance with Anakin... let alone a marriage... she is choosing a path that CANNOT end happily for either of them. She clearly, and correctly, notes as much herself, in AOTC. This is a relationship grounded in deceit. It can only end badly. Worse, by indulging Anakin in this, she - inadvertantly or not! - is fueling and strengthening one of his most dangerous flaws... his desire... his lust... to have it ALL his way, on his terms, to NOT choose, but to have everything, his way. This is a terrible choice, and it echoes her choice to excuse the Tusken slaughter, in that it strengthens and supports what most needs rebuffing in Anakin's character. It is very hard to see Padme as a woman of principle and strength once she makes this choice.

In ROTS, however, Padme is allowed some redemption, in that she begins to reassert some moral center, to begin to draw at least SOME lines. When Padme finally refuses to accept what Anakin has become, the political AND personal choices he has made, she shows the kind of strength and character that I think a lot of us expected from her when we saw her in TPM. But then... IMHO... the story betrays her. If she had died of injuries suffered by Anakin's force choke, I think she would have died a strong heroine, who, at last, regained her moral balance and made the toughest choice one can imagine... even if she had, with her dying breath, insisted there was still good in Anakin, and urged Obi Wan to somehow try to save him. But by having her "lose the will to live"? I am sorry, but this not only doesnt seem to make much sense (to me, at least) when she has two children to look after, AND when she could possibly try to redeem Anakin herself... it makes her look weak. Unfairly, I think, after the hard choices she finally faces, with courage, in ROTS.

I think Padme makes a terrible role model....even while having a lot of sympathy and affection for the character. A woman of great intelligence and accomplishment, she falls in love with a very bad man (who has moments of great goodness, yes!), rationalizes and excuses his terrible crime AND the traits that led to it, and then agrees to live a lie with him. When he physically assaults her ... while she is bearing his children! ... she dies not from injuries but because (so the movie seems to suggest) she has lost him. Hers is a sad, tragic, heart-breaking story... but it is not an admirable one. Sadly.

Shadow

PS - Please note... not once, that I can recall, does Padme urge Anakin to leave the Jedi so they can live together, get married, etc. Would Anakin have reacted well to this? I daresay he would NOT, given his need to have things HIS way, to have it all. Nor, it is suggested, is this somthing done easily (Obi Wan says as much in AOTC). But at least SUGGESTING this would have greatly strengthened her character, IMHO. We need to remember that Anakin's love for Padme is NOT all-powerful, as some have suggested. Anakin does not want Padme beyond all else...he wants to have Padme WHILE being a Jedi. He simply does not want to face that choice. And Padme never forces him to make it.

 

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