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Topic:
Anakin, you idiot!
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Nefertiti
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 6:21pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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Cool...maybe another time.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 12:09am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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sithrules70 posted:
it was love nontheless and you wont convince me otherwise
Oh, yes. It was love. But it was the wrong type of love that he had. The possessive, obsessive love that Anakin felt was too dangerous. He didn't love compassionately.
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yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 3:00am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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I would say it started out as love but became twisted into coveting, wanting somehting for oneself out of fear and pride. Had it just been love, he would have realised that helping Sidious was the wrong thing to do. Instead, he didn't care, about right/wrong, only getting what he wanted/needed. That Padme would rather die than help Palpatine was irrelevant to Anakin.
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Nefertiti
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 5:24am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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I'd go along with fascination. Anakin was initially fascinated by her. I can live with that. EP II was his realization of the "dream", the "fantasy". She was real. But did he really love her? No. Agree - he wanted her, wanted to control her, needed his own cheering crowd. Boy did he pick wrong. She was a strong woman. Strong beliefs and motivation. And he didn't listen to anyone but Palps. If he'd have listened...to Obi-1 or Padme. The line in EP III says it all... On the balcony, she asks him "When are we going to trust one another." How can you have a realationship...or love someone if you don't trust them?
Comments?
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RebelScum77
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 6:44am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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Nefertiti posted:
I'd go along with fascination. Anakin was initially fascinated by her. I can live with that. EP II was his realization of the "dream", the "fantasy". She was real. But did he really love her? No. Agree - he wanted her, wanted to control her, needed his own cheering crowd. Boy did he pick wrong. She was a strong woman. Strong beliefs and motivation. And he didn't listen to anyone but Palps. If he'd have listened...to Obi-1 or Padme. The line in EP III says it all... On the balcony, she asks him "When are we going to trust one another." How can you have a realationship...or love someone if you don't trust them?
Comments?
The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd. It completely undermines the entire Saga. The reason Luke can get through to Vader is because he's his son, the child born from he and Padme's love. There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that it wasn't real love. Lucas says over and over that they loved each other, the point is that on Anakin's end it grew to be unhealthy and dangerous. It has nothing to do with a cheering crowd either. He needed to feel that love and have that attachment because of his upbringing. He never totally fit into the Jedi and with Padme he could actually be himself. Love is a crucial element for a tragic hero, and both Lucas and Campbell made very sure that the Anakin/Vader fit it perfectly. False love doesn't cut it. The love story didn't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't intend it to be a real pure love that Anakin felt toward Padme, a love that was tragically corrupted.
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 6:50am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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darth-sinister posted:
sithrules70 posted:
it was love nontheless and you wont convince me otherwise
Oh, yes. It was love. But it was the wrong type of love that he had. The possessive, obsessive love that Anakin felt was too dangerous. He didn't love compassionately.
you dont willingly marry someone you dont love thats why i dont buy the "he olnly loved himself" theory 
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Nefertiti
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:11am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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RebelScum77 posted:
Nefertiti posted:
I'd go along with fascination. Anakin was initially fascinated by her. I can live with that. EP II was his realization of the "dream", the "fantasy". She was real. But did he really love her? No. Agree - he wanted her, wanted to control her, needed his own cheering crowd. Boy did he pick wrong. She was a strong woman. Strong beliefs and motivation. And he didn't listen to anyone but Palps. If he'd have listened...to Obi-1 or Padme. The line in EP III says it all... On the balcony, she asks him "When are we going to trust one another." How can you have a realationship...or love someone if you don't trust them?
Comments?
The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd. It completely undermines the entire Saga. The reason Luke can get through to Vader is because he's his son, the child born from he and Padme's love. There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that it wasn't real love. Lucas says over and over that they loved each other, the point is that on Anakin's end it grew to be unhealthy and dangerous. It has nothing to do with a cheering crowd either. He needed to feel that love and have that attachment because of his upbringing. He never totally fit into the Jedi and with Padme he could actually be himself. Love is a crucial element for a tragic hero, and both Lucas and Campbell made very sure that the Anakin/Vader fit it perfectly. False love doesn't cut it. The love story didn't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't intend it to be a real pure love that Anakin felt toward Padme, a love that was tragically corrupted.
Absurd? That was a bit harsh, but no matter. It is after all only my opinion. It doesn’t take away from the finality of the Saga but only enhances the ending. It is only at the end that Vader recognizes the truth. The power of love. A love he callously threw away in his goal to be powerful. His ambition. That unhealthy “love” or in my opinion, obsession began with the beginning. The vents between EP I and II are for the most part unknown to us and so we assume the young Anakin is being care for by the Jedi. Care for how? How is it that they were unable to make that connection – that attachment – he so badly needed? They have after all assigned him the title of Chosen One. And yet, we see in EP II that Palps has worked his magic and Anakin is suspicious of the Jedi, even Obi-1. How in that 10 year period of time did the Jedi assure and ensure that the Chosen One was what the prophecy stated he was? IMO, they didn’t. The “tragic hero”? Anakin? Why is he the hero? Because in the last film (book), he rediscovers his humanity? I agree that he is the Chosen One, but Luke is the hero of the original Trilogy. He is the catalyst that forces Vader to see just what he had become.
The love story. I loved these two kids when they first showed up. Even as the events played out, I waited for them to figure it out and beat the odds, but George kept to the rumors. She died, he’s in the suit and I wait for Luke.
Sithrules 70 - people do it all the time.
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:13am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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i still odnt buy it.and read the big "willingly" that i wrote.he certainly didnt marry her for her money or political position
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Jedi-Queen
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:19am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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"The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd"
Oh he loved her, just not in a mature healthy way.
Ani loved obsessively and possessively which is why he made some
of the choices he did. Also, if someone suggested Ani didn't love
Padme, it's not absurd, it's simply a different opinion.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:24am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd. It completely undermines the entire Saga. The reason Luke can get through to Vader is because he's his son, the child born from he and Padme's love. There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that it wasn't real love. Lucas says over and over that they loved each other, the point is that on Anakin's end it grew to be unhealthy and dangerous. It has nothing to do with a cheering crowd either. He needed to feel that love and have that attachment because of his upbringing. He never totally fit into the Jedi and with Padme he could actually be himself. Love is a crucial element for a tragic hero, and both Lucas and Campbell made very sure that the Anakin/Vader fit it perfectly. False love doesn't cut it. The love story didn't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't intend it to be a real pure love that Anakin felt toward Padme, a love that was tragically corrupted.
I agree. All you have to do is listen to George's comments in the Commentary. He says repeatedly that the point and purpose of ROTS scenes between Anakin and Padme is to show how much they loved each other and how that love would be twisted by Palpatine to suit his own purposes.
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Nefertiti
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:28am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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In the original trilogy books, we get some additional insight into Vader. Some memories, some feelings and it is the first time that Vader of the film (voted in the top 10 list of most biggest, baddest bad guys) can realistically be seen as human rather than the killing machine he is perfectly designed for and as in the final 3 films. We are not supposed to sympathize with that character. We are to fear him, hate him. It is only with the prequels, that we see how he became and are allowed to understand. And allowed to be sorry for him.
I don’t want you to change your opinion. There has to be a group who believe totally in what these two had was real, good and everlasting. It will find its place in storytelling as a great, tragic love story. And I’ll read it over and over again.
But guys... trust. He didn't trust her. Ok, I'll capitulate. He had for her that unhealth, obsessive, controlling love. The kind we see in killers. How's that?
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:31am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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Jedi-Queen posted:
"The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd"
Oh he loved her, just not in a mature healthy way.
Ani loved obsessively and possessively which is why he made some
of the choices he did. Also, if someone suggested Ani didn't love
Padme, it's not absurd, it's simply a different opinion.
its a dirferrent opinion but its also like saying that luke didnt love leia or han or obi wan...is in fact kind of absurd
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Nefertiti
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:33am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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I thought we were talking about Anakin? The original trilogy character not only loved eachother....but trusted eachother, without question. They bounced ideas and plans off eachother and together chose what their next step would be.
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EwokThatCried
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:41am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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I'm 100% with you, Nefertiti. Your suggestions are not absurd.
Anakin became immediately attached to Padme once he left Tatooine. Then that attachment developed into a longing as he matured and once he finally met with her again after 10 years, it was easy for him to develop romantic feelings on top of his attachment.
They may have had romantic feelings and experienced some bliss while spending time together on Naboo, but that quickly changed when they decided to live a dangerous lie and from that moment their relationship was mired with negative emotion and they never experienced pure love thereafter. In the end their relationship was driven by codependency and Padme was in love with one idea and Anakin was obsessed with another.
There was fear, distrust, jealousy, disharmony, greed, lies - between both of them. It overshadowed whatever precursor attachment and romantic feelings they had. They may have stolen a few moments of peace and comfort, but ultimately, darkness dominated their relationship - even before Anakin turned.
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RebelScum77
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 7:54am
Subject:
RE: Anakin, you idiot!
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EwokThatCried posted:
They may have had romantic feelings and experienced some bliss while spending time together on Naboo, but that quickly changed when they decided to live a dangerous lie and from that moment their relationship was mired with negative emotion and they never experienced pure love thereafter. In the end their relationship was driven by codependency and Padme was in love with one idea and Anakin was obsessed with another.
There was fear, distrust, jealousy, disharmony, greed, lies - between both of them. It overshadowed whatever precursor attachment and romantic feelings they had. They may have stolen a few moments of peace and comfort, but ultimately, darkness dominated their relationship - even before Anakin turned.
How do you back that up? All we see in the films is them getting married at the end of AOTC, clearly she has forgiven his earlier indescretions, and then the obvious love between them when they first meet in ROTS. It isn't until Anakin is in the midst of turning, after that initial meeting, that there is any such negativity. Every mention of their relationship in the Clone Wars EU is all about how much they miss and love each other. Obi-Wan knows, but leaves it alone. It even goes so far to say that Anakin wants to leave the Order after the CW and live with Padme on Naboo. Of course they have their differences, every couple does. Anakin doesn't like politics and he's too enamored with Palpatine. It was indeed Anakin's fear, distrust and greed that brings about his downfall, and ruins their relationship, but these do not truly emerge until the ball starts rolling in ROTS.
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