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Author	Topic: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 7:42am Subject: RE: During ROTS...
	I agree with FallenKnight88, who else could have pulled of what Ian did. Ian made Palps political spin believable... -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood but he sure wrecked Vader's ^^Foolish men mistake transitory semblance 4 eternal fact^^ o[]\|\|]ooooooooo[0]\|\|[]{ Gal: 5:19-21 Philippians 2:9-11
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LovedAnakin Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/23/05 8:04am Subject: RE: During ROTS...
	This movie was the work a genius. How often do encounter a movie with a villan that can actually convince the viewer he is the good guy/victim? I admit at first I was thrown off. And for the first time, my vision of the jedi was shaken. Everything started to fall apart when Obi Wan asked Anakin "off the record" to spy on palpy. That scene reminded me of politics, guerrilla warfare, militant actions and stuff. The end justifying the means. Utilizing the 'By any means necessary' policy. the sith lord wanted power and a dictatorship. Meanwhile the jedi wanted to restore power back to the republic. There was a lot of hipocracy on the part of the jedi. I can see why Anakin would believe the jedi are evil. They proved palpatine right and they were keeping secrets from Anakin. They did not trust him, which made Anakin not trust them. I could go on forever. Its sad how everything fell apart. -----signature----- Anakin/Hayden is my big daddy! ROTS AU - in year 2000 New York?! http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=21948525&replies=0 Seinfeld crossover http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10
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EwokThatCried Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 8:52am Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	"The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECIEVED BY THE CON as well." .....Hayden Christensen SW INSIDER 82 Many viewers were also conned by the propaganda. -----signature----- "Sir Carrie Fisher's Nipple" of the Knights of The 3SA Sarcasm Table George Lucas is a NO voter Overpowers means overpowers Gone, consumed, lost, murdered, ceased, destroyed, twisted, evil Outer Rim Sieges - http://boards.outerrimsieges.com
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Obi_Frans Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 9:25am Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	EwokThatCried posted: Many viewers were also conned by the propaganda. Definitely If there's one thing George just nailed brilliantly from every angle in the prequels, it's Palpasidious. - O_F -----signature----- "He only wanted to save them. Padme, from death. Obi-Wan, from ignorance But they failed to recognize his power. Instead, Padme was dead & Obi-Wan was running for his life As stripped of everything as Vader was. Without friends, family, purpose" - Vader
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r8hitman Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/23/05 11:23am Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well? Excellent topic. Yes voters/Mace haters, this is your opportunity to come clean and admit the truth. You believe that Mace was wrong in his attempt at killing Sidious because he convinced you (just like he did Anakin) that Mace was doing the wrong thing. You believe that Sidious has the ability to "toy" with Windu until Anakin arrives because he has you believing that he and the dark side are "all powerful" (just like he led Anakin to believe).....come on fellas, this thread is made just for you....go ahead and admit it. -----signature----- -you want answers? -I think I'm entitled. -You want answers? -I want the truth!! -YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!! http://boards.outerrimsieges.com/
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anakinobiwan Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 11:44am Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	The opera scene is one of the most brilliant, profound scenes in the entire saga. Ian was terrific in how he delivered his slithering and seductive lines but I'd like to give credit to Hayden also, who was just as great. The way he talked about the jedi code though you can see he didn't quite believe it and when Ian uttered the killer line, ..."he could even save people from dying.." The way Hayden turned his head, how his eyes squinted, how the light hit his face and that PERFECT eerie music cue...all ingredients for a perfect scene. Amazing job by both actors, George and John Williams. -----signature----- I have been in the presense of greatness and his name is Hayden Fearlessness The journey is the destination Anakinwobiwan - Dark Lady of the Sith
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NoCloneTheories Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 11:56am Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	Halfway between the dogmatic Jedi and the ruleless Papatine lies the truth. The reason palpatine manipulated you is because he made sense. George was brave to do that. He let Palpatine be the one to call the Jedi out on some very real problems of theirs. But he himself was doing so for entirely selfish reasons. That's what makes it fascinating. -----signature----- Changed to protect the sensitive.
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r8hitman Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/23/05 12:08pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	With the exception of the "life after death" trick it's not too much of a difference between the PT jedi and the OT jedi, IMO...so what kind of "problems" do you mean? -----signature----- -you want answers? -I think I'm entitled. -You want answers? -I want the truth!! -YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!! http://boards.outerrimsieges.com/
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jedibri Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/23/05 12:14pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	The opera scene is my personal favorite scene in any SW movie. To have such a meaningful conversation while your trying to watch/listen to something that is peacful is just plain disturbing. But, that's just one scene that makes "Sith" stick out above the rest for me. -----signature----- Isaiah 41:13
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NoCloneTheories Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 12:19pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	By the OT, the Jedi have dropped their entire course of institution. No dogma, no threats of banishment, no cautionary restrictions which do not give trust to the Jedi. Luke would never be "forbidden to love." It is almost entirely different. What exactly is the SAME between the PT and OT Jedi? Not much. -----signature----- Changed to protect the sensitive.
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mandragora Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/23/05 12:26pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	NoCloneTheories posted: By the OT, the Jedi have dropped their entire course of institution. No dogma, no threats of banishment, no cautionary restrictions which do not give trust to the Jedi. Luke would never be "forbidden to love." It is almost entirely different. What exactly is the SAME between the PT and OT Jedi? Not much. Yes, and no ivory tower to reside in. Just huts on Dagobah and Tatooine. -----signature----- “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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r8hitman Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/23/05 12:39pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	NoCloneTheories posted: By the OT, the Jedi have dropped their entire course of institution. No dogma, no threats of banishment, no cautionary restrictions which do not give trust to the Jedi. Luke would never be "forbidden to love." It is almost entirely different. What exactly is the SAME between the PT and OT Jedi? Not much. I'm sorry I just didnt see that much of a difference. Yoda told Luke if he valued what his friends fought for, he would let them die. That sounds an awful lot like some of the same gospel he was sending Anakin's way dont you think? Still sounds like a form of "forbidden love" to me. I think the jedi have always been allowed to love (in their own way), they were just forbidden to form attachments (the way WE love)...this was true in TPM, ROTS, and ESB, AND ROTJ ("bury your feelings deep down Luke"---Obi-Wan Kenobi.) So their teachings really didnt change that much. EDIT: Dont have a lot of time left to keep typing, so I hope you guys got that^^ -----signature----- -you want answers? -I think I'm entitled. -You want answers? -I want the truth!! -YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!! http://boards.outerrimsieges.com/
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lovelucas Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/23/05 1:08pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	you know, that's an interesting concept. the jedi changed the way they viewed the force - yoda taking qui gon's version - yet yoda used the same warning text about luke caring too deeply and too much for his friends when he needed to focus on preparation for the inevitable confrontation with vader. luke, the novice, it appears knows the force's intentions better than anyone. and he was operating with his own instincts. -----signature----- The world will never have lasting peace so long as men reserve for war the finest human qualities. Peace is not just the absence of violence but the manisfestation of human compassion. Yub Yub makes the world go 'round
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Darth_Pazuzu Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 9/23/05 1:47pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I've gotta say I'm pretty much bowled over by PalpatineAntikristos's observations 15 posts back! Those are some very good observations and insights, and I'm really rather envious! On the other hand, I'm not sure I agree with the part about Sidious being Anakin's creator! Granted, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to supporters of the Plageuis theory... But anyway, yeah, I agree that the political realm does have a tendency to attract anti-social personality types like Palpatine's! (Although heaven forbid they should ever be as powerful... ) -----signature----- "You're gonna pay for all the Jedi you killed here today, Darhe'el!" "Oh, I don't think I can pay for all of them. There were so many. And you can only execute me once, Skywalker!" "It's my only regret!"
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NoCloneTheories Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 9/23/05 2:01pm Subject: RE: During ROTS, did anyone else feel as if they were being manipulated by Palpatine as well?
	Anakinw as forbidden to love Padme. Luke was not forbidden from loving his friends. Yoda has a point that to some degree we must let things go in life, and move with the changes. But they didn't say "Sure, love Padme, but be careful." They said, "You cannot love anyone. It is too dangerous." With Luke, the same principle is at play -- that holding on can be dangerous -- but it is not institutionalized, it is not tethered to a threat, or punishment. Making friends and caring for them is not forbidden. Luke certainly seemed free to have loves on Tatooine. So rather, it is stressed that to not follow this advice is punishment enough because it will not work out well, but he is given the freedom and trust to make the decision himself. I am of the school that believes that Lucas, who is a huge champion of education, is essentially saying that if you never give people room to make their own mistakes, no amount of teaching in the world will help them. The sea change from the PT to the OT is basically summed up by that idea. The Jedi did have much good wisdom, much good advice, from the beginning. But it was administered in the wrong way. It was very much "Here are the rules, do not question them ever. We know it all." Even when the Chosen One came their way, they were unwavering in their certitude in their institution. By the OT, they are humbled, and find themselves getting to the root of the Force itself. It is the difference between following a dogmatic set of rules, like the bible, and finding your own rules. The bible has a whole lot of great advice, a lot of great lessons. But when people try to use it as a rule book, it's massive trouble. People would be better served, Lucas is saying, to skip the middleman and go straight to the source. For too long, the Jedi were sort of trumping Jedi law over all else, and that is why (I think) they found themselves so often "blind" in the PT. It isn't a trick by Palpatine, per se. It is their own blind spot which has become so predictable that Palpatine finds a way to slither right into it unseen, as evil so often does. When we rely too much on dogma, on tradition, on living by some antiquated set of rules without waver -- even ones rooted in good principles -- we basically create a window for evil and manipulative people to come in. The Force moves in mysterious ways, and the OT Jedi seem to me to be acknowledging that in a way that the PT Jedi, in their supposed infinite wisdom, did not. -----signature----- Changed to protect the sensitive.
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