Evil_Imp posted:Yes, ROTS Yoda was wrong to believe Anakin was lost. but that was the Point. ... by the time he and ObiWan face off , Anakin has already tried to kill Padme , and has destroyed the Jedi Order. he was too far gone at this point. that will change when he meets Luke , later .
starkiller63 posted:That is very interesting. I think the only thing that allowed Anakin to free himself from the clutches of the darkside was to see his son stand up to the emporer. It gave him the courage to do so as well. IMHO.
starkiller63 posted: I do like your idea though.
i_dont_know posted:Revenge of the Sith: Obi-Wan: Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin. Yoda: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not. Obi-Wan: He is like my brother. I cannot do it. Yoda: Twisted by the darkside, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained... gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader. Obi-Wan: I do not know where the Emperor has sent him. I don't know where to look. Yoda: Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will. Return of the Jedi: Luke: There is still good in him. Obi-Wan: He's more machine now, than man. Twisted, and evil. Luke: I can't do it Ben. Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again. Luke: I can't kill my own father. Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope. I have repeatedly said that Yoda was wrong to claim Anakin was already totally consumed. When I noticed how similar Yoda's instruction was to ROTJ Obi-Wan's, I realised that it fits in perfectly with my theory that Yoda was wrong in this Ep3 scene. The similarity in he and Obi-Wan instructions backs up my point really strongly. Obi-Wan also said Anakin was gone, but Luke knew otherwise. Yoda said Anakin was gone, but we know he is still partly there until the second-last Vader scene in the movie. I think Anakin could (possibly) have returned in Episode 3 if Yoda hadn't given Obi-Wan this advice.
darth-sinister posted:Obi-wan gave up on Anakin because he couldn't sense the good in him. He wanted to believe that there was good in him, but he could not find it. Luke could because he felt it on Bespin, which stems back to the death of Padme all those years ago. Anakin had grown to hate Obi-wan, which is why all the Jedi Master could feel was anger and hate. But Luke could feel the internal struggle that Vader was dealing with, it just took a while to realize that's what it was.
Darth_Turkey posted: I dont believe anyone would have turned Anakin/Vader back to the good side except Luke (or Leia has she been a Jedi) and for this reason Yoda was right in ROTS. IMO
Darth_Turkey posted:Familly is the one thing Anakin found hardest to let go of, familly and Love. Thats why Palps is so pleased when he tells anakin Padame is dead, cos in his eyes there is now no redemtion for Anakin cos everything Anakin loved and cared about is gone, he will forever be Darth Vader.
i_dont_know posted:Darth_Turkey posted: I dont believe anyone would have turned Anakin/Vader back to the good side except Luke (or Leia has she been a Jedi) and for this reason Yoda was right in ROTS. IMO But I don't think Yoda thought anyone could bring him back, including his future son. Perhaps Yoda was correct that no one at that time could save Anakin, but he doesn't seem to believe there is ever hope of Anakin returning. Darth_Turkey posted:Familly is the one thing Anakin found hardest to let go of, familly and Love. Thats why Palps is so pleased when he tells anakin Padame is dead, cos in his eyes there is now no redemtion for Anakin cos everything Anakin loved and cared about is gone, he will forever be Darth Vader. Yeah What Sidious does in that scene is so totally evil, because he knows that telling Anakin this will "kill" what remains of him. Anakin previously confided in Sidious about this very point: "Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her." Anakin meant it metaphorically, but at the end of the movie it is proven to be absolutely true.
Darth_Turkey posted: Yeah agreed, thats what Palps wants, an obibient servent with no ties to his former life, no chance of turning back and no one who can turn him. Thats why The Emporer fears Luke so much. "There is a great disterbance in the force" "I have felt it" "We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker. He could destroy us" "He's just a boy, Obi-wan can no longer help him" "The Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi" Palps does'nt think Luke is powerful enough to destroy him, thats not what he fears. He fears what Luke represents to Vader.
Darth_Turkey posted: Here Palps should have ordered Vader to kill Luke, not turn him, but allas his sith greed gets the better of him.
Darth_Turkey posted: Vader and Palps both have the same plan, to turn Luke, have him destory the other guy and then rule the galaxy together. Thats why Vader suggests turning Luke, and Palps agree's. They know there can be only two, but Luke must kill the other for him to be turned to the darkside. Vader thinks Luke will chose him as he is his father, thats why he tells Luke the truth about himself. Palps thinks Luke is just like anakin and can be made to kill Vader through his hate of what Vader has become, thus turning Luke to the Darkside. Thats why Vader takes Luke to Palps, and why Palps wants Vader to bring Luke to him. Luke must choose to turn and strike either one of Vader or Palps down for this to happen.
Darth_Turkey posted: Episode 4 is'nt called A New Hope for nothing, up until that time there was no hope for the galaxy. Yoda was right, Anakin was lost and Vader now stood in his place.
Darth_Turkey posted: It was'nt until Luke matured and Obi-wan watched over him that they collectivly reaised Luke is their new hope. And that (IMO) is the only reason they send Luke to face Vader again in ROTJ. Not because they think Luke could kill him and the Emperor (i mean come on, Yoda got beaten by Palps, what hope has Luke got?) . . . No, it's cos Luke has made a connection with Vader after ESB, he's felt there is good in him, Luke has put the first chink in Vader's armour and now it is time to exploit that chink. On the bridge of the SD after the MF jumps into hyperspace and eludes Vader at the end of ESB you can tell Vader is genuinly upset. We see no facial expression under the musk but his posture tells us everything. He's sad, he's feeling emotion again, the good person he once was IS still alive, and he knows it.
Darth_Turkey posted: It is from this point on that there is finally hope of Anakins redemtion, but prior to this he was truely lost, and Yoda and Obi-wan were right.
