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Author Topic: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
tubbsdog1911  88 posts
Registered: May '02
6006_Mace Windu
Date Posted: 10/21/05 11:41am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
you said: "I think it was established that the Jedi code forbids killing an unarmed or incapacited opponent. They can and will destroy Sith, but if they`re down on the floor begging to be spared, than the killing blow is a big no-no. Be they smugglers, slavers or even Sith Lords.
That`s why Anakin killing Dooku when he did was wrong and against the code as would Mace in the same situation. As would any Jedi according to their OWN code."

Where in the movies does it say this? On the contrary, in the arena in AOTC, Obi Wan kills the crab monster when the crab monster has been incapacitated. In ROTS Yoda kills several clones (when he and Obi-wan storm the temple) when they have been incapacitated. Zett Jukasa also kills clones who are seemingly incapacitated.

Now I'm almost ready to say that jedi can kill whenever they feel like it, but I don't know if the evidence supports that. What the evidence from the movies DOES support is that Jedi do not have to detain Sith, even when they are incapacitated.

Also, in ROTS after Anakin kills Dooku, no one (not Mace, not Obi-Wan, not Yoda, no one) asks whether Dooku was unarmed. Anakin says it's not the jedi-way, but no one asked about it or attempted to imply that Dooku should have been arrested. Again, there is no explicit word in the movies that demands Jedi not kill incapacitated Sith.

 

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SashaSkywalker  168 posts
Registered: Oct '05
24078_Padme
Date Posted: 10/21/05 12:04pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
tubbsdog1911 posted:

Where in the movies does it say this? On the contrary, in the arena in AOTC, Obi Wan kills the crab monster when the crab monster has been incapacitated. In ROTS Yoda kills several clones (when he and Obi-wan storm the temple) when they have been incapacitated. Zett Jukasa also kills clones who are seemingly incapacitated.



Hm, these are still combat situations, IMO. Zett Jukasa was in a kill or be killed situation, Yoda and Obi Wan couldn`t leave any Stormies alive to may be report them. And the crab monster might not get many consideration after all.

But I concede it wasn`t explicitly stated. But from Anakin hesitating before killing Dooku like that I always gathered that was against the Code. It`s pretty clear in the novel, if you take that as canon.
If Obi Wan wasn`t unconscious at the time, I reckon he would have stopped Anakin. And I always thought the Jedi jusn`t didn`t think to ask about that. They simply assumed Dooku was killed in "acceptable battle" terms.

That said, I`m not trying to put Mace down with what I said. I admit I have some issues with him, but in that situation I think he attempted to do the, how to put it, "right thing" from a galactic perspective. Killing Palpatine would have been the smart thing then and there. And he might have very well considered it still enough of a battle situation and thus totally within his mandate as a Jedi to act. Or weighing the "protect the galaxy" simply higher than anything else. Which I always thought as the Jedi top priority if they`re facing morally vs. legally or what-are-the-rules-kind-of- question.

 

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tubbsdog1911  88 posts
Registered: May '02
6006_Mace Windu
Date Posted: 10/21/05 12:18pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
SashaSkywalker posted:

They simply assumed Dooku was killed in "acceptable battle" terms.

That said, I`m not trying to put Mace down with what I said. I admit I have some issues with him, but in that situation I think he attempted to do the, how to put it, "right thing" from a galactic perspective. Killing Palpatine would have been the smart thing then and there. And he might have very well considered it still enough of a battle situation and thus totally within his mandate as a Jedi to act. Or weighing the "protect the galaxy" simply higher than anything else. Which I always thought as the Jedi top priority if they`re facing morally vs. legally or what-are-the-rules-kind-of- question.



However one wishes to shake it down the end result is this: Mace Windu was not wrong in trying to kill Palpatine. He was not overcome by the Dark side. He was not consumed by the dark side because of his use of vaapad (sp?). He had no explicit duty to arrest Palpatine. So, all these "dark confessions" of Master Windu and all that other b.s. are simply that, b.s. I think that people feel negatively about Windu because of deeply ingrained feelings that are prevelant in certain countries.

 

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SashaSkywalker  168 posts
Registered: Oct '05
24078_Padme
Date Posted: 10/21/05 12:30pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Hm, Mace being overcome or consumed by the Dark Side or some such honestly never crossed my mind. Even when I think it would have been against the code. I rather hope Jedi can think independently enough to say "screw the rules" without it being Dark Side-influenced.
IMO he made a decision and that was that. And Jedi can, strictly generally speaking now, can make wrong decisions. They`re not infallible. Why should it always be "the dark side made me do it" ?

As for certain ingrained feelings, never had these (I`m German, actually) and never give a second thought to fictional (or real for that matter) persons, hm, outward appearance.
Hope, we`re cool.

 

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And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
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Forever.
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SAND-CRAWLER  3744 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40081_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/21/05 1:12pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Master_Shaitan posted:


HE WAS TRYING TO STOP MACE FROM KILLING PALPATINE WHICH IN ESSENCE WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! - GL

(So mace did do the wrong thing! or does it mean mace was doing the right thing???)


"In Essence", Mace did the wrong thing. When Anakin said "It's not the Jedi way (to kill an unarmed man)" it was from experience because he already executed a Sith earlier and instantly knew he shouldn't have done it. The whole thing here is that every wrong move that was made in RotS was made out of a moral rationalization. Mace was going to execute Palpatine because he believed he was morally justified in doing so. In the same way, Anakin was morally justifying his slaughter of the Jedi in the Temple because it could save his wife. "In essence" Mace was doing the wrong thing because no matter what justification he had, he still would be executing an unarmed man.

Here's a BIG parallel that I believe Lucas is showing us in that statement:

In RotJ, Luke defeated a Sith Lord, was over him with his lightsaber and was about to execute him....just like Mace. Luke would have been totally justified in killing Vader but, "in essence", it would have been the wrong thing to do. The key to Lucas's statment is what he said earlier in that Anakin didn't know that Palpatine was going to kill Mace after he stepped in. Now, think about that and tie it together to what happened in RotJ. I've said this many times before, but if Mace actually listened to Anakin when Anakin said "It's not the Jedi Way" and actually threw away his saber just like Luke did in RotJ, Anakin WOULD HAVE KILLED PALPATINE RIGHT THEN AND THERE!!! If Mace threw his saber away and did the Jedi thing instead of trying to take matters into his own hands, Palpatine would have zapped him and Anakin would have stepped in and killed Palpatine. Anakin's strength was compassion(Lucas is all about the message of compassion) and if Mace backed down like Luke did, Anakin would have brought balance to the force right then and there.

Everytime I see RotJ now, and I see that shot where Vader's looking at Luke and then back to the Emperor as Luke's being fried and Vader's deciding what to do, I now see a realization in Vader/Anakin that if Mace backed down like Luke did, the Emperor would have fried him just the same. It's this realization in seeing the similarity to what happened with Mace that Anakin actually decided fix his mistake that he made 30 years earlier and bring balance to the force.

 

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Lars_Muul  10111 posts
Registered: Oct '00
45258_M&M Darth Maul
Date Posted: 10/21/05 1:16pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Dooku was an enemy of the Republic. Since the Jedi worked for the Republic, noone questioned their killing him. Likewise with Luke, who worked for the Rebels, who were enemies of the Empire. The Imperials didn't want the Emperor to die, but on the other hand, he controlled them. He ruled the entire galaxy. There was no way he would lose in court.
As was the case in ROTS. Mace was right in wanting to kill Palpatine right there, for the good of the galaxy. It was their only chance to save the galaxy from falling into darkness. He didn't care that it would make him look like a traitor, because he would've done the right thing.

Mace was right, Anakin was wrong.



Purple lightsabers are cool
/LM

 
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MithrandirVader  55 posts
Registered: May '05
6617_Yoda
Date Posted: 10/21/05 1:23pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
^^^^^^^
Excellent post. I really never thought about it like that before, but it makes perfect sense. Great analysis.

 

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mynameismyown  895 posts
Registered: Jun '05
23579_Yoda
Date Posted: 10/21/05 1:49pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
good post sand crawler, now i understand. a better question would be why didnt a jedi MASTER know that? and don't just say because the jedi were too stodgy blah blah blah

 
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Lars_Muul  10111 posts
Registered: Oct '00
45258_M&M Darth Maul
Date Posted: 10/21/05 1:58pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Yes, that was a very good analysis of the situation! However, there's a significant difference in those two scenarios: Luke was about to kill Vader in vengeance, while Mace was about to kill Palpatine to save the galaxy. He wasn't giving in to hate; he was doing his Jedi duty!
Furthermore, Palpatine was obviously not unarmed. Sure, he appeared to be too weak to continue fighting, but don't you think Mace saw through his act? He may not have seen it on a conscious level, but I think he knew in his gut that Palpatine had something up his sleeve.



The sky is blue
/LM

 
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lordmorpheus  1112 posts
Registered: Dec '04
7453_Mace Shatterpoint
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:08pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
You know what, IMHO, i think that regardless of how it would have looked to the senate, i think that mace windu ws prepared to make that decision and perhaps take the fall for the entire order just to ensure that sidious was taken out of power. that's just my opinion....the order could and would have survived without windu as long as yoda was head, but the galaxy couldnt survive without the order and with sidious in power. he was prepared to take the hit for the galaxy.

 

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JediPrettyBoy  2014 posts
Registered: Jan '05
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:09pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
I just realized that if, in fact, the Sith created Anakin somehow. This sounds a lot like another DUNE reference. The Bene Geserit manipulated bloodlines in order to create their messiah, but once Paul is born and comes into his own, their plan to control things ultimately backfires on them just as Sidious' plan backfires when Vader throws him into the reactor shaft in ROTJ.

 

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jedibri  4109 posts
Registered: Jul '00
24124_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:17pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
The Sith did not create Anakin. That was a lie. Ya know sort of look how powerful you can be if you join me.

Only later was it said "Only one has acheived the power to escape death. But, togather we can figure it out."

This line proves it was a lie. Read into it. I don't know how to escape death. So we can do it togather sometime. but now there's more pressing needs.

 

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SAND-CRAWLER  3744 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40081_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:25pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Lars_Muul posted:
Yes, that was a very good analysis of the situation! However, there's a significant difference in those two scenarios: Luke was about to kill Vader in vengeance, while Mace was about to kill Palpatine to save the galaxy. He wasn't giving in to hate; he was doing his Jedi duty!


Not really. Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader out of vengence, he was initially trying to kill him because he was trying to protect his sister. He finally saw how evil his father was that when he finds out he has another child he instantly wants them to try and convert them to the dark side. Luke would have totally been justified in his actions of killing Vader but "in essence" it would have been the wrong thing. Again, if Mace would have done the honorable thing and not tried to execute Palpatine, Palpatine would have done something stupid and got himself killed at the hand of Anakin. Again, it comes down to the statement that Lucas said that Anakin didn't know that Palpatine was going to kill Mace after he lopped his hand off.


Lars_Muul posted:
Furthermore, Palpatine was obviously not unarmed. Sure, he appeared to be too weak to continue fighting, but don't you think Mace saw through his act? He may not have seen it on a conscious level, but I think he knew in his gut that Palpatine had something up his sleeve.


Unarmed or not, Mace was in total control. Palpatine was a smoking raisin and Mace still had his saber. Mace couldn't be beaten. He had Sidious. That's the point. Sidious might as well have just had his hands severed off because his lightning wasn't doing any good against Mace. If Sidious kept it up, he would have killed himself. In otherwords, with Mace holding his saber and Palpatine at the brink of total exhaustion, he was pretty much as good as "unarmed" as you can get.

 

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Pooja  18750 posts
Registered: May '02
8133_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:29pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Great. Thanks for the info guys. happy

 
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SAND-CRAWLER  3744 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40081_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/21/05 2:31pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
MS posted earlier:


Then he (Sidious) says "ok I’ll do that but now you have to go and kill all the Jedi. Leave none alive or they will come back and get us - even the kids". - GL



Is Lucas saying that Sidious actually KNEW how to cheat death!! shock
"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved" is a WHOLE lot different than "Ok, I'll teach you how to cheat death but you'll have to do this first". I'm really confused here by Lucas's comment.

MS, is that the actual wording Lucas used?

 

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