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Author Topic: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Darth_Sideous  2425 posts
Registered: Jun '04
6163_Padme
Date Posted: 11/1/05 9:58am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Vaapad was not in the movie, it is eu material that GL allowed in the novel.

By being in the novel, Vaapad becomes cannon behind the movie itself. The movie doesn't prove OR disprove the existence of the Vaapad technique.

Mace had a technique that could defeat a Sith master. Had Anakin not intervened, Sidious would have been killed. Nobody can say that Mace did not have a unique technique. Just because the name was borrowed from EU does not make it invalid.

 
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SAND-CRAWLER  3744 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40081_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/1/05 10:12am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Again, for anyone who missed it, Lucas interprets the line: "To cheat death is a power only one has acheived" as being "OK, I'll tell you how but first you've got to do a few things."

Palpatine KNEW how to cheat death or at least come VERY close to it. This confirms the line earlier as being true:


ANAKIN: What happened to him(Plagues)?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.


Plagues taught Palptatine EVERYTHING...including how to cheat death. Palpatine only said "To cheat death is a power only one..." only to keep stringing Anakin along according to Lucas, it's not because Palpatine didn't know how to do it. Lucas even infers that Palpatine DID know how to cheat death. devil

 

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MithrandirVader  55 posts
Registered: May '05
6617_Yoda
Date Posted: 11/1/05 10:32am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Had Anakin not intervened, Sidious would have been killed.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Its essentially been confirmed that Sidious was not too weak to use more lightning, and that he only to stopped firing to exaggerate his weakness. Thus he had the ability to fire more lightning at Mace whenever he wanted to, and did not have to wait for Anakin to cut off Mace's hand. The reason I make this point is that if you watch when Mace goes for the killing blow he does this ridiculous slice along the side that he leaves his mid section completely open to attack. The fact is that if Palpatine thought Anakin wouldn't step in, he could have blasted Mace through the window then when he left himself so ridiculously open. And I have no doubt that Palpatine knew Anakin would step in and that's why he waited to attack. I mean his behavior on screen made it quite clear that he wasn't going to let Palpatine be killed, not to mention that Palpatine was probably sensing his thoughts through the Force and used this to be sure of what Anakin's actions were going to be.

The fact is that whether you believe Mace actually beat Palpatine in the saber duel or not (which I'm intentionally avoiding discussing my stance as I do not want to start on another debate on this) Palpatine beat Mace in the over all battle. Remember that there is more to combat than fighting skills alone, and so Palpatine beat Mace by pulling out his best weapon, his ability to manipulate. But he didn't just manipulate Anakin as many seem to believe, he also manipulated Mace. Mace actually believed the battle was over, and that Palpatine was weak and defenseless. That is why he didn't put any thought into defending himself when he went for the killing blow. He believed that he had already won, and that belief sealed his fate regardless of Anakin's actions.

So maybe Mace beat Palpatine in the saber duel, or maybe not. But Palpatine is the one that came out on top and he didn't need Anakin to do it. While many believe Palpatine needed Anakin to defeat Mace, I believe he needed Mace to finally snare Anakin, and that's why he waited to fry Mace when he could have done it as soon as Mace wound up for the killing blow.

 

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SAND-CRAWLER  3744 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40081_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/1/05 12:42pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
MithrandirVader posted:
The fact is that whether you believe Mace actually beat Palpatine in the saber duel or not (which I'm intentionally avoiding discussing my stance as I do not want to start on another debate on this)


What's there to debate? The Truth has been spoken. Lucas SAID that Mace beat Palps. There's nothing more to debate unless you want to try to convince others that the sky is not blue either.

MithrandirVader posted:
Palpatine beat Mace in the over all battle. Remember that there is more to combat than fighting skills alone, and so Palpatine beat Mace by pulling out his best weapon, his ability to manipulate. But he didn't just manipulate Anakin as many seem to believe, he also manipulated Mace. Mace actually believed the battle was over, and that Palpatine was weak and defenseless. That is why he didn't put any thought into defending himself when he went for the killing blow. He believed that he had already won, and that belief sealed his fate regardless of Anakin's actions.


No, after hearing the commentary I've come to the belief that Lucas's intention wasn't that at all. Palpatine won the overall fight NOT because of anything he did but because of what Mace tried to do. Mace caused his own death. According to Lucas, Anakin stepped in and stopped Mace from killing Palpatine and it was "essentially" the right thing to do. In otherwords, Mace did the "wrong" thing and brought about his own demise. Palpatine was saved by Mace's mistake, not by anything Palpatine did at all.

MithrandirVader posted:
So maybe Mace beat Palpatine in the saber duel, or maybe not.


Again, it isn't "maybe" anymore. Mace DID beat Palpatine. According to Lucas, Mace "always" beat Palpatine in every revision of that scene. rolling_eyes

MithrandirVader posted:
But Palpatine is the one that came out on top and he didn't need Anakin to do it. While many believe Palpatine needed Anakin to defeat Mace, I believe he needed Mace to finally snare Anakin, and that's why he waited to fry Mace when he could have done it as soon as Mace wound up for the killing blow.


Too bad your beliefs are wrong. You missed what the director was trying to show. You can blame him for it. Needless to say, Palpatine didn't win ANYTHING in that duel. He was beat by Mace during the swordfight, he was forced to back down during the lightning and the only reason why he survived was because Mace did the wrong thing. That's the irony of the entire scene. The entire OT could have been avoided and yet Mace got cocky, disbelieved the prophecy and chose to take matters into his own hands...and the galaxy paid for it bitterly. I'm sure that Sidious would like you to believe that he faked it all, but he didn't. He lost every aspect of that duel and only survived because Mace made a serious error in judgement.

 

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BirthofWindu 
Registered: Nov '04
Date Posted: 11/1/05 7:15pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
I didn't read through every page. Did Lucas say any of that "Palpatine was faking" bs that people were saying in those old Mace vs Palpatine threads? did he say "Mace beat him."? Just wanna make sure.

 
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BlackRook  283 posts
Registered: Apr '05
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 11/1/05 7:54pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
SAND-CRAWLER posted:
Plagues taught Palptatine EVERYTHING...including how to cheat death. Palpatine only said "To cheat death is a power only one..." only to keep stringing Anakin along according to Lucas, it's not because Palpatine didn't know how to do it. Lucas even infers that Palpatine DID know how to cheat death.


The way I see it, the Sith have figured out a way to cheat death, but it's probably some impure, toxic technique, and I say toxic because it's a trick: to get this power, you pretty much have to sell your soul. It may help prolong life (though I personally don't think Sidious is much older than he looks), but it's not the ultimate power that Anakin was seeking. Sidious just made it sound like it was. Qui-Gon's path to immortality and Plagueis's are being two separate things, though the Sith have confused the latter for the former.

What's sad is that Anakin was basically screwed either way. Qui-Gon's path only allows you to save yourself and Plagueis's gives you power in exchange for your figurative soul and risks putting the very people you're trying to save against you.

I'm still not sure how any of that relates to Anakin's birth, though I prefer to think that he wasn't create by the Sith. That's just my opinion, though.

 

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Thulium  1164 posts
Registered: Oct '99
6642_42
Date Posted: 11/4/05 11:19am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
SAND-CRAWLER posted:
No, after hearing the commentary I've come to the belief that Lucas's intention wasn't that at all. Palpatine won the overall fight NOT because of anything he did but because of what Mace tried to do. Mace caused his own death. According to Lucas, Anakin stepped in and stopped Mace from killing Palpatine and it was "essentially" the right thing to do. In otherwords, Mace did the "wrong" thing and brought about his own demise. Palpatine was saved by Mace's mistake, not by anything Palpatine did at all.

Too bad your beliefs are wrong. You missed what the director was trying to show. You can blame him for it. Needless to say, Palpatine didn't win ANYTHING in that duel. He was beat by Mace during the swordfight, he was forced to back down during the lightning and the only reason why he survived was because Mace did the wrong thing. That's the irony of the entire scene. The entire OT could have been avoided and yet Mace got cocky, disbelieved the prophecy and chose to take matters into his own hands...and the galaxy paid for it bitterly. I'm sure that Sidious would like you to believe that he faked it all, but he didn't. He lost every aspect of that duel and only survived because Mace made a serious error in judgement.


Crawler, I agree with your assessmenet that "Palpatine was saved by Mace's mistake", but I disagree with "not by anything Palpatine did at all." Think about it again and ask yourself, WHY did Mace make that "mistake". (And, again, it's only a mistake from a certain point of view. It's hard to say that killing the Master of Evil is the WRONG thing to do, but in this case, with the balance of power on the line...it was the wrong thing to do "in essence") Mace attempted to kill Palpatine because Palpatine WANTED him to try it. It's just like in RotJ when Palpatine is goading Luke into trying to kill him, Palpatine is goading Mace here as well. Palpatine knows that fear and anger and hatred are the path to the darkside, and that's the path Sidious wants taken. Until Palpatine uses the lightning, Mace is willing and ready to do things "the Jedi way", but Sidious does a really good job of p***ing off the BMF Jedi. This fear and anger leads to an act of hatred which leads to a victory for the Darkside. We now have absolute confirmation that Sidious was faking when he said "I'm too weak", I don't think it stretches too much to say he was also faking when he said "don't kill me"

Palpatine very certainly didn't lose every aspect of the duel. He had Mace cornered throughout. There were only two parts of the duel that went "Mace's way": When Sidious lost his saber (making him look to Anakin like the victim of a Jedi coup), and when Sidious lost his pretty face (making him look to the Senate like the victim of a Jedi coup). Considering that these two moments are arguably in Sidious' favor, and the rest of the duel was very clearly either a tie or favoring Sidious...I think it's stretching things to say that Mace won.

 

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Thulium  1164 posts
Registered: Oct '99
6642_42
Date Posted: 11/4/05 11:40am Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
BlackRook posted:

The way I see it, the Sith have figured out a way to cheat death, but it's probably some impure, toxic technique, and I say toxic because it's a trick: to get this power, you pretty much have to sell your soul. It may help prolong life (though I personally don't think Sidious is much older than he looks), but it's not the ultimate power that Anakin was seeking. Sidious just made it sound like it was. Qui-Gon's path to immortality and Plagueis's are being two separate things, though the Sith have confused the latter for the former.

What's sad is that Anakin was basically screwed either way. Qui-Gon's path only allows you to save yourself and Plagueis's gives you power in exchange for your figurative soul and risks putting the very people you're trying to save against you.

I'm still not sure how any of that relates to Anakin's birth, though I prefer to think that he wasn't create by the Sith. That's just my opinion, though.


Basically here's what I've put together about Anakin's origins as they pertain to the Sith:
Darth Plagueis found a way to use the force to manipulate midichlorians to create and sustain life.
Darth Sidious learned all this, but didn't see any value in sustaining the life of anyone but himself--since Plagueis wasn't able to save himself, he decided that the power was worthless to him and disregarded that particular technique.

This means that EITHER Sidious or Plagueis could have manipulated the midichlorians that created Anakin, but considering the timeline of things, it is more likely that Sidious is the one most directly responsible. This means that Sidious also had most of all the information about how to sustain life, but seeing no value in it for personal gain he had never bothered to try it so teaching Anakin how to do it would be a learning experience for them both.

Note: See other threads for my opinion on how a Sith creation of the Chosen One does and does not affect the mythos of The Chosen One. In a nutshell, think of the classic story of Messiah: The Enemy's attempt to destroy the Chosen One ultimately brings about the sacrifice that Saves the world. The illustration is that of the synergy of Evil working in tandem with Good to bring about an Ultimate Destiny.

 

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Lumpawarrump  133 posts
Registered: Apr '01
6547_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 11/4/05 12:14pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Good post, Thulium. That's the same conclusion I've come to.

Sidious' hubris, his overconfidence in having complete control over his creation, of his god-like ability and control, is his undoing. While a sith may have manipulated the midichlorians to create Anakin, it is the Force that ultimately created him. Sidious simply set the wheels in motion. Midichlorians are how living beings communicate witht the force, but they are not the force itself. That spark that conceived Anakin is still the mystery of the force that Sidious himself underestimates. And so, Anakin contains the full spectrum of the force. This is why George wanted to make it clear that as a kid, while Anakin had unbelievable force potential, he was otherwise a normal, good kid. Sure he is incredibly powerful, but like eveyone, he is capable of both good and evil.

I really like how Lucas was so subtle about this revelation in the movie. It leaves a sense of mystery and depth that has always made Star Wars so much fun discuss and dream about.

 

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JEDI-RISING  272 posts
Registered: Apr '05
8054_Anakin and Padme
Date Posted: 11/4/05 2:37pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
To me Palpatine is just throwing out that stuff to manipulate Anakin. I don't think he had anyway to save Padme', and i'm not at all sure Plagueis created Anakin.

 

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Thulium  1164 posts
Registered: Oct '99
6642_42
Date Posted: 11/4/05 3:23pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
JEDI-RISING posted:
To me Palpatine is just throwing out that stuff to manipulate Anakin. I don't think he had anyway to save Padme', and i'm not at all sure Plagueis created Anakin.


Plagueis probably didn't create Anakin, but Palpatine probably did. As hinted in the commentary, the discussion of Plagueis' discovery on how to create life is "essential information about Anakin's origins" As to whether or not he could save Padme, see comments above. There is plenty of reason to believe that Plagueis did indeed have a way to cheat death, but he couldn't save himself. But if it didn't help further Sidious' personal ambitions, this ability is worthless to Palpatine. Keeping someone other than himself alive doesn't hold a lot of value to Darth Sidious, but when called upon to keep his young and powerful Apprentice alive, Darth Sidious pulled through in the pinch, didn't he?? Darth Sidious, however, had absolutely no reason to keep Padme alive, especially after Anakin had made his fateful decision to turn to the darkside.

 

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padmedeathstar 
Registered: May '05
6116_Anakin and Padme
Date Posted: 11/10/05 1:00pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
Did GL say anything about why Palps/Sids told Anakin that he killed Padme? And why he seems happy when Anakin discovers that it was he himself who was responsible for her death. Frankly I don't believe the logic that "Sids needed Anakin to hate himself" in order to make Vader stay with Sids and be his apprentice. It seems counterintuitive that Vader would stay, if he really believe he killed Padme. If I were him man, I'd hate the dark side for making me so angry that I killed my wife. I think GL screwed up on the cause of padme's death thing, he should have had her get in between Obi-1 and Anakin and accidentally get hit by a rock hurled at Ani by Obi-1, then Anakin could have just blamed Obi-1 and that would explain his subsequent hate and his reluctance to see his own son turn into a jedi in the OT.

In ROTJ Luke says, "I feel the conflict within you let go of your hate." Basically,you get the feeling that by ROTJ, Vader is not turning back to the good side just because of his hate and also because he fears Sids or feels that he needs Sids, since he's weak (as a reult of his injuries).

 
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battlewars  1703 posts
Registered: Mar '05
7992_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/10/05 1:29pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
does he hate himself or is hate the only way to feel more powerful? why exactly does he stay with the emperor? although i think he wants to kill him in esb it seems hes just a slave to palpy in rotj, which negates what he felt in rots and esb

 
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BlackRook  283 posts
Registered: Apr '05
7715_Poggle
Date Posted: 11/10/05 1:36pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
padmedeathstar posted:
Did GL say anything about why Palps/Sids told Anakin that he killed Padme? And why he seems happy when Anakin discovers that it was he himself who was responsible for her death. Frankly I don't believe the logic that "Sids needed Anakin to hate himself" in order to make Vader stay with Sids and be his apprentice. It seems counterintuitive that Vader would stay, if he really believe he killed Padme. If I were him man, I'd hate the dark side for making me so angry that I killed my wife.


Yeah, but there's the thing about the dark side- hate feeds it. So the more angry and hateful Anakin is, the further down the dark side he goes. If Vader hates himself, then not only does it strengthen his dark side power, but it gives him constant focus. At that point, it was too late for Anakin to turn back anyway. What was he going to do, kill Sidious? His hate gives him power, but in his state, that's not enough to kill Sidious. He can't very well go back to the Jedi. If he stays with Sidious, then he at least has a position of power, and that's really all he has left.

 

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battlewars  1703 posts
Registered: Mar '05
7992_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 11/10/05 1:38pm Subject: RE: DVD Commentary Rolling Report *May Contain Spoilers*
yeah but vader does want to kill palps in rots and esb, why does he protect him rotj then?

 
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