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Topic:
Aayla Secura's death
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Greedo_forever
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 10:30am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Yoda and Mace Windu said, IN THE MOVIES, that more and more Jedi were becoming arrogant, too sure of their abilities.
It's IN the films: I'm not using a scape goat- the Jedi have weaknesses, and THAT is their downfall, as is the case in most tragedies. Hubris destroyed many classic heroes.
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 10:49am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Greedo:
It is one thing for a character to say something in a movie...and another for the movie itself to demonstrate the truth of what was said.
For example... to me, the most clear-cut example of what might be described as Jedi arrogance occurs in AOTC, when Obi-Wan is talking to the "librarian" re the location of the cloner's planet. She stuffily asserts that if it isn't in the Jedi Archives, it doesn't exist. Smug, stuffy, overconfident and, if you want to press it, a bit arrogant. I am sure a lot of SW fans went "AHA!" at that moment. I am also sure a lot of non-SW fan types thought "Sheesh...just like a librarian/bookworm!"... *S* Of course, moments later, Yoda and the younglings figure it all out.
But other times? As I noted in my post... I have read posts here covering virtually every decision the Jedi make, and saying "See - there is that arrogance!". I don't see that in general, and I don't see it in the particular case of the "Order 66" scenarios that are presented (to return to the subject of this Thread, or, at least, to get closer to it). The Jedi were ambushed. Betrayed. In the most base and stunning way. I don't see how "arrogance" had anything to do with it!
Shadow
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Greedo_forever
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 10:55am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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SHAD0W-JEDI posted:
...I don't see how "arrogance" had anything to do with it!
Shadow
How about in the sense of: "We're Jedi! Pfah! No one would THINK of betraying us! We're so powerful and omniscient. Alright, CLone Troopers, follow me into battle- I'm a Jedi! NOTHING can go wrong! HA HA!" 
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:10am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Lucas cut out her dialogue, where she and the Clonetroopers were looking for a droid encampment and thinks that she hears them, when she's shot.
Anyway, I don't see any problems with the scene. All of the Jedi are surprised. Only Ki-Adi-Mundi gets to try and defend himself and that's because he turned to see why they weren't following him. Aayla didn't know that they were raising their blasters until it was too late. Plo Koon did realize something was up, but couldn't get his fighter around in time. Stass Allie was intent on pursuing the droids that she didn't see them fall back. Obi-wan wasn't even paying attention either. It just so happened that the wall and Boga took the brunt of the impact. Yoda got to do something only because he sensed a massive disturbence in the Living Force, which clued him into what was going on with his surroundings. Even the Wookiees didn't sense it, which is why Chewie is more alert on Cloud City. He's got no use for clones. Much less Imperials in general. In the cut scene, Shaak Ti didn't sense Vader standing behind her ready to strike.
As the novelization describes it, none of the Jedi sensed ill intentions from the Clone Army. Which is why they didn't sense the danger.
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:11am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Greedo:
Lets evaluate that, as an example of Jedi arrogance.
Apparently, from the end of AOTC to the point of Order 66 in ROTS, the clone armies fought loyally, bravely, and well, on the side of the Jedi and the Republic. It is implied that there was even some comaraderie (SP?) between Commander Cody and Obi Wan. There was nary a hint of betrayal, of subterfuge, of two-facedness. It is pretty obvious that, between AOTC and Order 66 in ROTS, the Jedi led LOTS of battles with their clone armies....JUST like the ones being shown as Order 66 is given. I am sure that wasn't the first time (I am lousy at spelling Jedi names!) K'd Al Mundi led a charge, that Aayla went on a scouting mission wth her troops, or that others went on patrol, etc.
So again, how is it arrogant for the Jedi to not expect that a Sith lord will suddenly pop up on a comm channel, give a secret order, and that the clones will suddenly, mercilessly and coldly betray their Jedi "generals"? Should the Jedi have been waiting for this all along, through the years of the Clone Wars? To suggest that this is an example of Jedi arrogance is to suggest that they should somehow have KNOWN the clones, after years of faithful service and many battles fought, would turn on them out of the blue. I don't see it....
If you want to argue that the Jedi should never have agreed to a clone army in the first place (not fearing betrayal, but on purely ethical grounds), I think you might have something. However, it is interesting that Lucas never presents any alternative to using the clones in the first place. We never see a debate over the use of the Clone army - no one suggests raising armies through a draft, etc, only to be outmanuvered by Palpatine, politically. No one objects to the use of an army of ostensible slaves. I honestly don't think GL saw the use of the clones, per se, as a "mistake".
Shadow
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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-Jedi didn't think that the Sith were still alive.
-Jedi didn't think that Anakin was worth training.
-Jedi did train Anakin, even though Yoda said it was a bad idea and the Code forbade it.
-Obi-wan agrees to train Anakin, with or without the Council's permission.
-Obi-wan thinks that he could do as good a job as Yoda.
-Jedi think it's impossible that the Sith could return without their knowing it.
-Yoda states that arrogance is a flaw far too common among Jedi, even the older and experienced ones.
-Jocasta Nu arrogantly believes that Kamino doesn't exist, because it's not in their Archives, even though Dexter says otherwise.
-Dex says that they should know the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
-Mace thinks that two hundred Jedi would be enough to rescue Obi-wan.
-Anakin thinks that he will become the most powerful Jedi ever.
-Anakin thinks that Obi-wan is holding him back.
-Anakin takes offense to Padme taking charge of security on Naboo, as well as correcting Sio Bibble about Anakin's rank.
-Qui-gon thinks the Council will train Anakin without any quams.
-None of the Jedi believe that Dooku could've gone rogue.
-Obi-wan doesn't want to believe Dooku who is telling him the truth about Sidious.
-Anakin thinks that he can take Dooku on his own.
-Obi-wan thinks that they won on Geonosis.
-Mace thinks it's a good idea to tell the Senate that their powers are diminishing.
-The Council believes that Anakin will ultimately do his duty, despite his attitude.
-Mace feels that four Jedi Masters will be enough to deal with Palpatine.
-The Jedi believe that Sifo-Dyas did create the Clone Army and not anyone else.
-Obi-wan blindly believes that Anakin will not let him down.
I think we can safely label the Jedi as being arrogant, without commentary or interviews or eu sources.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Greedo_forever
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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^^^
Good points, SHAD0W-JEDI and Sinister
The situation WAS pretty much out of their hands... I mean, what choice did they have? I suppose that they COULD'VE boycotted the Clone Army and refused to fight (or lead them, for that matter), but why would they do that?
Obviously, the cause of their downfall CANNOT be narrowed down to just arrogance. Optimism? It a bit more complicated than that.
I personally blame a mix of:
1. their all encompassing devotion to the war
2. overconfidence (in some, not all), in their abilities, powers and reputation
3. The Dark Side clouding their senses, and perhaps judgment
4. and of course the fact that the troopers did not give off ANY bad vibes at all, but then again, see points 1, 2 and 3...
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:37am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Darth:
With all due respect, you are doing exactly what I described... you bring up every case where (arguably) the Jedi MIGHT be wrong, MIGHT have made a mistake, and then label that as evidence of arrogance. Error and arrogance are not the same thing. Nor is defeat an evidence of arrogance.
First off, your inclusion of Anakin is interesting, because Anakin IS arrogant -- and that is precisely why he is NOT the Jedi he should be, not the Jedi Obi Wan is, and why he is seduced into falling! Anakin's arrogance is not evidence of Jedi arrogance, but is rather evidence of what a Jedi should NOT be!
Similarly, it would be VERY interesting to see if GL would agree that when Obi Wan shows faith that Anakin will not let him down, he is being "arrogant". Really? Many on this Board claim that evidence of Obi Wan's arrogance can be found in his criticism of Anakin, his "scolding", that he was not supportive enough. Now, you cite his FAITH in Anakin as evidence of arrogance. This is just what I meant in my earlier post... pretty much ANYTHING a Jedi does, in these movies, that a viewer disagrees with, is cited as evidence of "arrogance".
BTW...is it your position that the Jedi should NOT have trained Anakin? You mention this as evidence of arrogance. So you think the right decision was NOT to train Anakin? They should have sent him packing? Is it "arrogant" to feel one way about something, but to be convinced to do otherwise, with misgivings? Arrogant people almost NEVER do this. They are sure they are right; they hold their ground over all objections. That the Jedi reluctantly come to train Anakin is NOT evidence of arrogant inflexibility, but of humility. AND... I don't think we are meant to believe that the training of Anakin WAS a mistake. Training Anakin put him in the position to destroy the Sith. He had a chance...and he chose BADLY. Eventually, he chose wisely.
Again..hijacking the Thread here. Poor Aayla! But Darth, I don't think you make a credible case for Jedi arrogance. You make a credible case for Anakin being arrogant (which was precisely the danger in him, along with his fear and need for control!), but beyond that, I would have to respectfully suggest you show only that the Jedi are sometimes fallible. And that is not the same thing!
Shadow
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Greedo_forever
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:43am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Hmmm... I think a lot of people are mistaking arrogance for OPTIMISM.
It seems that the Jedi Order were a little too optimistic about a few things...
Hmm... hey, SHAD0W-JEDI, are you going to catch the Alf christmas special this year? I haven't seen that in years.
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SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 11:46am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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BTW...in the interest of fairness...I can think of one BIG case where the movies show the Jedi as falling victim not to arrogance..but to despair. To hopelessness. And that is near the end, when they simply cannot believe there is any hope of redeeming Anakin/Vader.
I think their view is understandable. It is, I would argue, reasonable. Vader has, after all, been evil for many many years at that point. Completely in the thrall of the Dark Side. The Jedi...Obi Wan and Yoda... do not seem to believe he can be redeemed (especially Obi Wan). They seem to believe that Luke must defeat Vader, best him in combat, to save the day. In truth, it is Luke's faith in some core of goodness in Vader/Anakin that turns the tide.
So...flawless? No. Perfect? No... but....Arrogant? *S* I don't see that...sorry...*S*
Shadow
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Circle_Is_Complete
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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I have to say it is kind of odd that this is my longest running thread I created. I have made a few that I thought were insightful and yet they get little response or die of and yet Aayla's seems to have a life of it's own. I have read some of the opinions of others and enjoyed a few. I just wanted to clarify that the reason I started this was to say that when looked at one or two times all we seem to notice is the "bad fall" or the fact that she wasn't strong enough in the force to draw her saber. When seen repeated times I noticed the deeper brutality and heartlessness of it. Ex. Killing Younglings and shooting defenseless women in the back.
As for the Jedi who don't sense it I have a few ways maybe you can look at this.
1.Imagine being in an elite army constantly at battle in remote places that are new to you and the only way you survive is the platoon around you. You are with them night and day constantly and a level of trust,respect and frienship begins to grow and one day without ANY warning signs they turn on you the middle of battle. No signs of warning. Doeas this make you arrogant or dense?
2.Imagine you are in a relationship for a year say and you have gotten close with this person and have grown to love and trust them and one day they just turn with no warning and say,"Hey I'm breaking up with you to marry (such and such) Are you the one at fault? Should you have seen it coming?
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ReaperFett
Registered:
Dec '99
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Date Posted:
12/11/05 9:24am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Yodas-evil-twin posted:
Actually, I thought the clones would be more efficient. They shot her more than a dozen times and were still doing it when the camera pulled away. T
Future Stormtroopers, not one hit. If the camera went back to her, you'd see the ground would have been scorched by blaster shots around her body, like a movie crime scene 
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appleseed
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
12/11/05 11:12am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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darth-sinister posted:
-Jedi didn't think that the Sith were still alive.
-Jedi didn't think that Anakin was worth training.
-Jedi did train Anakin, even though Yoda said it was a bad idea and the Code forbade it.
-Obi-wan agrees to train Anakin, with or without the Council's permission.
-Obi-wan thinks that he could do as good a job as Yoda.
-Jedi think it's impossible that the Sith could return without their knowing it.
-Yoda states that arrogance is a flaw far too common among Jedi, even the older and experienced ones.
-Jocasta Nu arrogantly believes that Kamino doesn't exist, because it's not in their Archives, even though Dexter says otherwise.
-Dex says that they should know the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
-Mace thinks that two hundred Jedi would be enough to rescue Obi-wan.
-Anakin thinks that he will become the most powerful Jedi ever.
-Anakin thinks that Obi-wan is holding him back.
-Anakin takes offense to Padme taking charge of security on Naboo, as well as correcting Sio Bibble about Anakin's rank.
-Qui-gon thinks the Council will train Anakin without any quams.
-None of the Jedi believe that Dooku could've gone rogue.
-Obi-wan doesn't want to believe Dooku who is telling him the truth about Sidious.
-Anakin thinks that he can take Dooku on his own.
-Obi-wan thinks that they won on Geonosis.
-Mace thinks it's a good idea to tell the Senate that their powers are diminishing.
-The Council believes that Anakin will ultimately do his duty, despite his attitude.
-Mace feels that four Jedi Masters will be enough to deal with Palpatine.
-The Jedi believe that Sifo-Dyas did create the Clone Army and not anyone else.
-Obi-wan blindly believes that Anakin will not let him down.
I think we can safely label the Jedi as being arrogant, without commentary or interviews or eu sources.
I think it's arrogance to a degree, and naievte, personally.
The Jedi were too good for their own good.
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uwishuwereme
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
12/11/05 11:28am
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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I dont know if anyone here has played Battlefront 2 or not but it kind of shows an interesting background of the clones admiration for Aayla,in the game the clone narrarator says "I hope when she died it was quick cause she deserved better"
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Nktalloth
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/12/05 6:06pm
Subject:
RE: Aayla Secura's death
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Right, this response is a little late, but bear with me. The Geonosian arena isn't a good example af arrogance. First, look at how effective droids are when they're hunting Obi and Anakin in the Invisible Hand. Not terribly. They aren't nearly as effective as clones, much less Jedi. Second, how many Jedi would've been actually able to attend the arena battle? May I remind you that the Jedi are an elite minority of peacekeepers, and so have obligations all over the Republic, stretching their few numbers. Besides, was Mace wrong?
Now, I have nothing against Aayla. I never said she should've died gracefully or even nobly. I am not a hardcore fan, and I only realized how much her death dissapointed me after the second viewing. Yes, it is sad and tragic, and a horrible war-crime, but I would expect her to at least make a token effort against the clones. The way it is now makes it look like she's allready given up when they point their guns at her. The master in the Jedi starfighter has a very good reason for not being able to defend himself, as his assasins are in the fighter right behind him. Ki-Adi-Mundi (who is, in fact, awesome despite his forehead), manages to defend himself to a minor degree. Obi-Wan is fired on by a TANK so he has an excuse. Yoda takes out his clones (he has the power of a crotchety old man, he wins every time). Aayla is at Point. Blank. Range. Against what, three, four clones? Obi and Anakin are trapped in that elevator, turn around to see some ten battle droids and come out unscathed. Realisticaly, I'll be Aayla could've taken out the clones and ran to a safe place. However, instead of a real surge of survival instinct on her part, we get flailing poorly acted death. If they had just given her a bit longer seen, it would've been better.
Plus, I doubt the Jedi would look too closely at all of the clone training, because A) It's not their force, and B) I doubt Marines oversee the training of the Navy. (Not a commentary on which of our armed forces is better or not). Somehow I doubt the Jedi thought that the Emperor was plotting to have them all murdered. Certainly they didn't trust him, but there's a big step between distrusting someone and suspecting they're plotting your death.
And no, the clones wouldn't have any choice in their orders. They'd been bred and raised to be subserviant to the Republic, so any order from the chancellor may have well come from God.
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