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Topic:
Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/2/06 6:18pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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i wanted Anakin to block Mace's blade as he tried to kill DS, and them fight and Anakin take him out, like he did the Count.
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/2/06 7:15pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Froshcler- The duel was still going on. Would you count the scen where they take cover to avoid being hit by lava pebbles still part of the duel? Of course you would. The duel was not over until Obi-Wan cut off Anakin's limbs.
Oh yea, Sidious was faking being weak. But that doesnt mean he hadnt lost. He would have been killed if Anakin hadnt come and given him an opening.
Interesting hypothesis (about if obi and ani never knew each other and how in that same way ani could never beat obi) But once you get into what ifs, it just gets confusing. If someone esle taught Ani, he'd either go dark sooner than Sidious's plans warranted and quickly be defeated by the Jedi, or go Dark later or not at all in time to save sidious. Obi was the only one who could have made what happened in the films happen.
Zam, so you still think Ani would have beat Mace? Btw, you've been awful quiet concerning the 6 points I brought up.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
2/2/06 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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-HD-YaebGinn posted:
Froshcler- The duel was still going on. Would you count the scen where they take cover to avoid being hit by lava pebbles still part of the duel? Of course you would. The duel was not over until Obi-Wan cut off Anakin's limbs.
Oh yea, Sidious was faking being weak. But that doesnt mean he hadnt lost. He would have been killed if Anakin hadnt come and given him an opening.
Interesting hypothesis (about if obi and ani never knew each other and how in that same way ani could never beat obi) But once you get into what ifs, it just gets confusing. If someone esle taught Ani, he'd either go dark sooner than Sidious's plans warranted and quickly be defeated by the Jedi, or go Dark later or not at all in time to save sidious. Obi was the only one who could have made what happened in the films happen.
Zam, so you still think Ani would have beat Mace? Btw, you've been awful quiet concerning the 6 points I brought up.
Can I just say that I completely agree with you on this post and your last. I think you're right on the money, sort of speaking.
Zamwessel didn't answer my questions either - none of the Anakin fans did.
The problem with Anakin is that he has the potential. He is gifted. It is not always the gifted guys who become the best, however. You have to stay determined and focused. OBW, Yoda, Sideous and Windu were all masters of that. Anakin was not. He defeated Dooku - and I personally didn't like the way that happened. How come he could easily fight the both of them, in ROTS, with a grin on his face, and suddenly loose... It is at least as suspect as the Mace Sideous fight.
I don't understand why people are bashing Mace - he was right in not trusting Anakin, and he DID defeat Sideous. He was extremely powerful, he was wise (although that is not shown good enough in the movies I think). OBW was that as well, but not quite as powerful.
Zamwessel: why not answer my questions, and HD-YaebGinn's questions?
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Ani_Lover
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/2/06 11:43pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Rossa83 posted:
-HD-YaebGinn posted:
Froshcler- The duel was still going on. Would you count the scen where they take cover to avoid being hit by lava pebbles still part of the duel? Of course you would. The duel was not over until Obi-Wan cut off Anakin's limbs.
Oh yea, Sidious was faking being weak. But that doesnt mean he hadnt lost. He would have been killed if Anakin hadnt come and given him an opening.
Interesting hypothesis (about if obi and ani never knew each other and how in that same way ani could never beat obi) But once you get into what ifs, it just gets confusing. If someone esle taught Ani, he'd either go dark sooner than Sidious's plans warranted and quickly be defeated by the Jedi, or go Dark later or not at all in time to save sidious. Obi was the only one who could have made what happened in the films happen.
Zam, so you still think Ani would have beat Mace? Btw, you've been awful quiet concerning the 6 points I brought up.
Can I just say that I completely agree with you on this post and your last. I think you're right on the money, sort of speaking.
Zamwessel didn't answer my questions either - none of the Anakin fans did.
The problem with Anakin is that he has the potential. He is gifted. It is not always the gifted guys who become the best, however. You have to stay determined and focused. OBW, Yoda, Sideous and Windu were all masters of that. Anakin was not. He defeated Dooku - and I personally didn't like the way that happened. How come he could easily fight the both of them, in ROTS, with a grin on his face, and suddenly loose... It is at least as suspect as the Mace Sideous fight.
I don't understand why people are bashing Mace - he was right in not trusting Anakin, and he DID defeat Sideous. He was extremely powerful, he was wise (although that is not shown good enough in the movies I think). OBW was that as well, but not quite as powerful.
Zamwessel: why not answer my questions, and HD-YaebGinn's questions?
And I don't understand the Anakin bashing.
Why is it that people will find one way or another to totally dispute what is seen right on screen and still make reasons for this or that??
The reason people bash Mace is because us Anakin fans get a little tired of hearing about how arrogant he is only for those same people to defend Mace's arrogance.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just commenting on the double standard.
The facts are, Dooku lost to Anakin. Quite easily I might add. Just because you don't like "the way" it happened doesn't make it any less relevant right??
So what if he had a grin on his face, So did Maul before he was chopped in half. Is that not relevant?
Mace lost to Sids. You just can't dispute that fact no matter how hard you try. Palps was FAKING. We all know that. It is ludicrous to say that Sids would have died had Anakin not "come and gave him an opening". Had Ani not been there to lure to the Dark Side, Palps would have just taken out Mace himself. End of story.
We see and hear about Anakin (and Obi) doing many heroic deeds throughout the movies. Why do you think him and Obi were sent out during the Clone Wars for 3 years? You sure don't see Mace doing ANYTHING but sitting in his council seat barking orders. Even Yoda went and got stuff done. What was Mace doing?? He was so arrogant he didn't even wait for back up from Yoda. Where do we see Mace determined and focused?? If he was so focused he would have shown PATIENCE and thought things through. After all, he's only dealing with a SITH LORD.
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Maranelo_Jori
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 1:54am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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<sarcasm> Oh yeah, sure, Palps was faking all the time. Mace was death just before he entered the room.
Its clear as day that Obi-Wan was also playing weak on Mustafar, he would have destroyed Anakin in seconds if he wanted to </sarcasm>
Disscusions like this never lead to the answer. But I say that Mace would win 
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 9:35am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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If I MUST accept that Dooku lost, why can't you accept that Sideous lost to Mace then? I accept that Dooku lost, I just didn't particularly like the way it happened.
You still don't answer my questions. Mace's task was not to go on missions as Anakin and OBW. Yoda didn't go on too many missions himself it seems.
Here's a couple of questions:
1. Lucas intended for Mace to win. We see him overpower Sideous. What more proof do you need?
(to say he didn't win is a bad interpretation)
2. Mace appeared to be the strongest Jedi in the arena in AOTC - even Dooku seems to say that. He killed Jango quite easily. Where does he appear weak here?
3. So, we only see Mace in action twice. But he kicks ass both times. What more do you need really? it's not about quantity, it's about quality!
As for Maul's grin. Didn't he have the right to grin. He had overpowered OBW. His arrogance was his downfall, not his skills. Bad example.
It's really annoying when you keep saying that Mace is so bad when you can't say why, or answer questions. You praise Anakin, but in the end he lost to OBW who is below Windu in strength and experience.
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 9:44am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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1. So you say Palpatine was faking when he lost, yet swearing Dooku was fightingtooth and nail even when he was clealry doing better against 2 fully trained jedi than he was against one?
2. You have as much evidence of Mace going out and doing stuff as you do Obi and Anakin. Books- Shatterpoint. Cartoons- Dantooine.
3. How was Mace arrogant? He thought he brought 4 of the Orders best swordsmen including himself. And he succeeded in his goal. He defeated Palpatine. If I claim I can win the Tour de France, I am arrogant and ignorant, but if I do it, what am I?
4. I am fine with how Anakin is. But no matter which way you spin it, he is the bad guy of Star Wars. I dont hate Anakin, he is a cool character, but he is a bad guy. I dont like seeing Anakin fans try and make it look like he's the victim, when he's over there killing kids and choking his wife.
Rossa- exactly, I dont think Dooku neccessarily let himself die, but he has been said by sveeral sources that he was trying to trap Anakin and thought Palps would bail him out. There is no evidence to support Palpatine doing the same thing with Mace. Obi rules!
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 10:18am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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The Dooku/Anakin fight is not debatable, Dooku was trying to kill Anakin, he knew what was going on, and even if he didn't he still was trying to kill Anakin, b/c Palps said if you can KILL him hes not strong enough.
I don't know if Mace was arrogant he was just an ***hole, in the way he talked about Anakin in ROTS, when he should have been praising him for saving Palpatine,Killing Dooku, saving Kenobi, but instead he just trys to stare him down and talk down to him, that doesn't mean he is weak though, but beating Jango Fett with 1 gun and no jetpack so he has to just stand there is not an accomplishment. Just b/c Mace overpowers Sidious at that moment does not mean DS could not have just killed him earlier with the force, what would Anakin have done if he walked in there and all them were dead, he would not have turned then. Sidious planned everything in the prequels even Anakin's birth, i think. He knew what he was doing. George Lucas in 03 told Gillard about that in ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful jedi ever, and the book says that, his loss was mental, and that would not have been there against Mace, he would have had no attachment to him, and would have beaten him the same as Dooku.
Oh and Anakin is the victim, George Lucas said that i think in this 05 Vanity Fair, he even used that word.
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Maranelo_Jori
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Oh yeah, Palps planed everything, I mean EVERYTHING. He planed even his own birth and death.
Actually, he died exactly the way he wanted, precisely acording to his plan.
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 10:55am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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he did plan everything up until he got tossed by Vader.
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Ani_Lover
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 11:11am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Rossa83 posted:
If I MUST accept that Dooku lost, why can't you accept that Sideous lost to Mace then? I accept that Dooku lost, I just didn't particularly like the way it happened.
You still don't answer my questions. Mace's task was not to go on missions as Anakin and OBW. Yoda didn't go on too many missions himself it seems.
Here's a couple of questions:
1. Lucas intended for Mace to win. We see him overpower Sideous. What more proof do you need?
(to say he didn't win is a bad interpretation)
2. Mace appeared to be the strongest Jedi in the arena in AOTC - even Dooku seems to say that. He killed Jango quite easily. Where does he appear weak here?
3. So, we only see Mace in action twice. But he kicks ass both times. What more do you need really? it's not about quantity, it's about quality!
As for Maul's grin. Didn't he have the right to grin. He had overpowered OBW. His arrogance was his downfall, not his skills. Bad example.
It's really annoying when you keep saying that Mace is so bad when you can't say why, or answer questions. You praise Anakin, but in the end he lost to OBW who is below Windu in strength and experience.
We see what APPEARS to be Mace overpowering Sids. He did get him on his back but thats it. As I said before, if Ani hadn't come in, Palps would have used Force Lightning on him anyway. You say I don't answer questions, actually I do. How many different times should I answer the same question? I've given answers to your questions, you just don't like the answers so you say I'm anoying and not answering any. I've already said WHY Anakin lost to Obi-Wan, I've already said WHY Dooku lost to Anakin, I've already said WHY Sids would have kicked Maces butt anyway. It's right there in the movie. Even Yoda couldn't take him down. Are you saying Mace is better than Yoda?
I'm not saying Mace wasn't a powerful Jedi, but Lucas intended for Mace to die, not overpower Sideous. The facts are there, Sids is a sly guy, he let Anakin do the dirty work and fall to the Dark Side. If he hadn't, Sids would kill Mace anyway, forget Anakin, and get himself a new apprentice.
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You Snore At Night, That Really Bugs Me. Can I Take You Out? - Sam Monroe "I Have Problems With My Tongue, When I Concentrate Really Hard, It Sticks Out." - Hayden Anakin, Can I Touch Your Lightsaber?
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 11:16am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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So how can you say he planned his fight with Mace up to being fried by his won electricity and Mace getting his hand cut off, but cant plan his subordinate betraying him?
How can Palpatine possibly plan Anakins birth? That is ridiculous!
If Anakin was deemed too weak if he lost, how come Palpatine still wanted him after AotC? He beat Jango when he had a full arsenal, but during the fight, he lost some of it. He still had
1. A gun
2. Flamethrower
3. Multiple darts
4. Blades out of his wrist.
Mace did well during that fight. He beat the galaxy's best bounty hunter.
If Sidious beat the Posse, then Anakin would still have evidence that they attacked him and that they had attempted to kill him. Either way works.
He had the potential to be the best, but he wasnt yet. Obi-Wan was just as mental as Anakin.
If you like the books so much (which is not canon and cannot be quoted as such) then in the novel Dooku is letting himself lose according to Sidious's plan.
Anakin is not in any way the victim. Save for being too dumb to realize he is being manipulated. He killed kids, choked his wife, murdered a village of tusken raiders, and tried to kill his master. He is not the baddest guy, but he is the bad guy. He is responsible for his own actions. Sidius did not make him do anything. He did it.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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I don't, however, agree with your take on the EMperor and the dark side. Since we are all looking for an interpretation that fits our perception of the star-wars universe, I can see that you choose to take Lucas statement about the dark-side as literally true. However, as I mentioned, you must take into consideration at the time and in which relation he said it. You must agree, at least, that there is a slight chance that he meant only for Anakin's agenda or perception of his agenda? That meaning that the dark side is not universally stronger.
Lucas wasn't talking from Anakin's point of view, he was talking from his own point of view. If the dark side was only stronger from Anakin's point of veiw, Lucas would have specified that. I wouldn't say that the light side is stronger. However, I might say that another poster thinks the light side is stronger. I would have to make it clear that the statement is someone else's opinion, not my own. If I simply say "the dark side is stronger", that means its my own opinion- not just someone else's. Since Lucas says the dark side is stronger, that means its definitely universally stronger.
I agree that Luke had nothing to resist the Emperor in ROTJ, but you must by now see that he did throw away his defense - we don't know his agenda for sure - could be that he KNEW he couldn't withstand it, then you are correct.
The Emperor and Luke were on equal footing because neither used a lightsaber. The Emperor proved that the dark side is much stronger because Luke couldn't do anything to resist the Emperor's force lightning.
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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your pretty much wrong on everything there, to say its ridiculous to say Sidious planned Anakin's birth is ridiculous, go watch the commentary on ROTS dvd in the opera scene, Macallum said in a web chat his guess was DS created him. The commentary also says Anakin loses b/c Kenobi was stronger mentally. and it wouldn't matter if Jango had a rocket launcher, if he can't fly away hes dead, with Kenobi or Mace. It has been said many times the weakness of the darkside is arrogance, Luke even said that, and that is why DS never thought Vader would kill him out of compassion for his son. And the book clearly says Dooku could not beat him b/c Anakin just kept getting stronger, and had unlimited "force reserves."
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brook_33
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 11:29am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Anakin would have owned Mace had they fought. I personally think that, judging by the final duel, Obi-wan and Anakin could kick anyone's butts in a lightsaber fight.
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