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Topic:
Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Ani_Lover
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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-HD-YaebGinn posted:
So how can you say he planned his fight with Mace up to being fried by his won electricity and Mace getting his hand cut off, but cant plan his subordinate betraying him?
How can Palpatine possibly plan Anakins birth? That is ridiculous!
If Anakin was deemed too weak if he lost, how come Palpatine still wanted him after AotC? He beat Jango when he had a full arsenal, but during the fight, he lost some of it. He still had
1. A gun
2. Flamethrower
3. Multiple darts
4. Blades out of his wrist.
Mace did well during that fight. He beat the galaxy's best bounty hunter.
If Sidious beat the Posse, then Anakin would still have evidence that they attacked him and that they had attempted to kill him. Either way works.
He had the potential to be the best, but he wasnt yet. Obi-Wan was just as mental as Anakin.
If you like the books so much (which is not canon and cannot be quoted as such) then in the novel Dooku is letting himself lose according to Sidious's plan.
Anakin is not in any way the victim. Save for being too dumb to realize he is being manipulated. He killed kids, choked his wife, murdered a village of tusken raiders, and tried to kill his master. He is not the baddest guy, but he is the bad guy. He is responsible for his own actions. Sidius did not make him do anything. He did it.
I never said he planned to be fried by his own Force Lightning. Now you're just saying things I never even said. I also never said Sids planned Anakins birth. If anything, Darth Plagus planned it, NOT Sids. (by the way, I don't think HE did either, Anakin was made by the force, he was The Chosen One) Sids planned and hoped that Anakin would come "rescue" him by planting the seeds of Padme's death in his mind. It was all a set up. He knew Anakin would lead himself to his own downfall.
The facts are:
Palpatine CHOSE ANAKIN out of any other Jedi BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEST!! He wanted the most powerful Jedi ever for his own apprentice. Not Mace, not Obi, not anyone else. He had the highest midichlorian count of anyone. Including Yoda! You cannot dispute the facts. Sids knew who was the best and the best was ANAKIN.
And no Anakin was not dumb. The Jedi council was dumb! You'd think they would treat the Chosen One with a little more respect, as he is the one to bring the force "back into balance". Why would they jepordize that?? Instead they ask him to commit treason. Completely against the Jedi Code. The council was not free of their mistakes either. They could learn a thing or two about loyalty.
(By the way, a jet pack and a gun don't mean much. Boba had the same and look what happened to him?? A blind guy kicked his butt.  )
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You Snore At Night, That Really Bugs Me. Can I Take You Out? - Sam Monroe "I Have Problems With My Tongue, When I Concentrate Really Hard, It Sticks Out." - Hayden Anakin, Can I Touch Your Lightsaber? 
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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You don't answer to what Lucas said about Mace overpowering Sideous. You are using his quotes as it pleases you best. That is what I find annoying
Anakin and OBW couldn't have bested Mace, Yoda or Sideous - they were below them
Noone is disputing the fact that Anakin had the best potential of all the Jedi. But look how young he was, look how inexperienced he was compared to Yoda or Mace, Sideous and even OBW. Mace and Yoda had many more years to learn about the force. Perhaps Anakin had the potential of being stronger even in ROTS, but he didn't know enough about the force. He's not like superman who can read a book in two seconds you know. Raw power is one thing, cultivated power a whole different story. Mace, Yoda, OBW and Sideous had cultivated powers. Mace, Yoda and Sideous also had raw power. Combine those two and you will outmatch Anakin. OBW showed that cultivated powers alone could defeat Anakin.
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 12:45pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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So who do you think had more experience Count Dooku, padawan of yoda, master of qui-gon and then Sith Lord, or Jedi Knight Anakin?
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 2:01pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Zam- 1. Then prove me wrong, dont tell me I am wrong. Show me how I am wrong.
2. So someone who worked in star wars says he guessed Palpatine created Anakin, you take it as fact? Lucas created star wras, he is the only one who can say that and make it true, not the producer's guess. He didnt even say it was, he said he guessed.
3. He'd only have to fly away if he was losing. He had more than enough weapons to do so toe to toe with Mace. It wouldn't have mattered if he had his other gun or a jetpack, at best he would have run away. But Mace was close enough that even if Jango flew away, Mace could have gotten him by jumping and slashing him in two.
4. But if Palps really knew what was going to happen, he would have known Vader's son would be able to turn him. But he didnt. He did know Vader's son could turn him. Which is why he lied to him and said his kids were dead. He knew if Vader could be turned, his son would do it.
5. Dooku had more experience than Anakin. Why do you ask?
brook- granted, theduel was awesome, and the ywere so in sinc, that together, they could beat anyone, but not individually.
anilover- 1. Some of those were directed at Zam, so I wasnt putting words in your mouth or anything.
2. Yes, he had the most potential. No one ever disputed that. But at the time of RotS, he was not at his prime. Maybe in 5-10 years, he could beat anyone, but not then. In order to be a Force master, you need wisdom as well as youthful energy. Anakin was not yet mature enough to be the best Jedi ever.
3. The council wanted to teach him meekness as well as hone his skills. They made some mistakes, but only in the same way Anakin did about not suspecting Palpatine so much.
4. It's also treason to start a war against your own organization in an attempt the wrest control of the galaxy.
5. Anakin didnt earn the council's loyalty. He constantly disobeyed orders and ignored the council. (plus he murdered people)
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Master_EdgeCrusher
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 2:16pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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-HD-YaebGinn posted:
So how can you say he planned his fight with Mace up to being fried by his won electricity and Mace getting his hand cut off, but cant plan his subordinate betraying him?
How can Palpatine possibly plan Anakins birth? That is ridiculous!
If Anakin was deemed too weak if he lost, how come Palpatine still wanted him after AotC? He beat Jango when he had a full arsenal, but during the fight, he lost some of it. He still had
1. A gun
2. Flamethrower
3. Multiple darts
4. Blades out of his wrist.
Mace did well during that fight. He beat the galaxy's best bounty hunter.
If Sidious beat the Posse, then Anakin would still have evidence that they attacked him and that they had attempted to kill him. Either way works.
He had the potential to be the best, but he wasnt yet. Obi-Wan was just as mental as Anakin.
If you like the books so much (which is not canon and cannot be quoted as such) then in the novel Dooku is letting himself lose according to Sidious's plan.
Anakin is not in any way the victim. Save for being too dumb to realize he is being manipulated. He killed kids, choked his wife, murdered a village of tusken raiders, and tried to kill his master. He is not the baddest guy, but he is the bad guy. He is responsible for his own actions. Sidius did not make him do anything. He did it.
your going to make a fight with the thought of a mandalorian to a jedi! no no no
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ripped away from the dreadfull dark side, with the darklust still in my head,
www.myspace.com/ifbutforone
"THROUGH THE STORM is being released"
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Darth_Froschler
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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-HD-YaebGinn posted:
Froshcler- The duel was still going on. Would you count the scen where they take cover to avoid being hit by lava pebbles still part of the duel? Of course you would. The duel was not over until Obi-Wan cut off Anakin's limbs.
Yeah...that's exactly what i said...lol
Whatever man 
But yeah, I haven't even posted my thoughts on the actual topic yet lol. By ROTS, Mace would without a doubt kill Anakin. But it would certainly be a long and hard battle. Give Anakin a year...hell, maybe even a month and i would say he would be able to take ANY force user, not even breaking a sweat.
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"Dont worry, we have R2 with us."-The cheesiest line ever!
"Fool, I AM the senate!"-palpatine
"Feel, dont think. Use your instincts."-Qui-gon
"Your focus detirmines your reality."-Qui-gon
"I will do what i must...."-Obi-wan Kenobi, best line in ROTS
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 3:28pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Yeah, give it about 2 or 3 years and Anakin would be undefeatable.
Someone else was talking about how Obi-Wan was not emotional during the duel. And I was referring to when he was wanring anakin and then weeping about how he was his friend.
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- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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Obi-2_Kenobi
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 4:22pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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In case you guys forgot jango's jetpack wouldn't work after the reek trampled him and he lost a gun fighting obi.
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The PT is AT LEAST as good as the OT.
its all about the monsters
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Darth_Froschler
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
2/3/06 5:28pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Like it actually mattered if it did work....
-----signature-----
"Dont worry, we have R2 with us."-The cheesiest line ever!
"Fool, I AM the senate!"-palpatine
"Feel, dont think. Use your instincts."-Qui-gon
"Your focus detirmines your reality."-Qui-gon
"I will do what i must...."-Obi-wan Kenobi, best line in ROTS
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 7:18am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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? really? He never retrieved the gun from Kanio or got a spare? I always saw him with just 1 gun on Geonosis, but always thought it was jsut him using 1 gun over 2 for whatever reason. Cool.
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- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 10:36am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Here's an interesting tidbit that won't help us in the debate, but is a good read nonetheless.
Homing Beacon #139 (June 23, 2005)
It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?
George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.
This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in.
"Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments.
So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."
When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?"
At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27.
So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?
What else changed in this scene? There are a few more interesting details, particularly where it moved in the sequencing of the story. But that will have to wait for another entry.
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 11:01am
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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that does not change anything b/c Lucas says this is where mace overpowers him, and then that Sidious is faking being weak, you would think with the ferocity he shot his lighting at Yoda that knocked his saber out of his hand and the way he shot to kill Mace, that he could have done that right from the beginning.
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-HD-YaebGinn
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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I was just posting it for the benefit of everyone. So they could see it just for fun.
With Mace, he could have, but he would have blocked it. Plus Mace is alot bigger than Yoda. If a football hits Yoda, it could knock him down. If one hits Mace, it wouldnt impact him the same.
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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Master_EdgeCrusher
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 3:26pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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-HD-YaebGinn posted:
I was just posting it for the benefit of everyone. So they could see it just for fun.
With Mace, he could have, but he would have blocked it. Plus Mace is alot bigger than Yoda. If a football hits Yoda, it could knock him down. If one hits Mace, it wouldnt impact him the same.
what does Jango and OBW and football with Yoda have to do with Mace fighting Anakin/Vader? Mace is not Yoda, nor is Yoda Mace. Saber skills, Mace would not have lasted with Anakin, that or they would even a draw!
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ripped away from the dreadfull dark side, with the darklust still in my head,
www.myspace.com/ifbutforone
"THROUGH THE STORM is being released"
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The_Chibi_Kiriyama
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
2/4/06 6:05pm
Subject:
RE: Could Anakin have beaten Mace
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Some people here are forgetting that "initially intended scenes" don't help to understand the full scheme of things. Or have we forgotten that the title 'Revenge of the Jedi' was changed at the last minute by Lucas because he believed that "Jedi don't take revenge"? Nothing stays the same, and even though I hate Mace Windu it seems from Lucas' own words that he bested the Dark Lord of the Sith himself. Case closed yet again by The Chibi Kiriyama!
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Notice my name? Yeah, I'm obsessed with something other than Star Wars-
BATTLE ROYALE!
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