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Topic:
Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 2:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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It depends I think. Mace did overpower Sideous. OBW bested Anakin. Yoda drawed with SIdeous. IF they are, it's not that explicit. But on a general basis, I think I would agree...
As for the laughing at the lightsaber thing, that is folly. I know that Sideous used other means to create his Empire... that was not because he had lost faith in a lightsaber, it was more that he saw and understood how he could do it. It was genius. He was brilliant - it had nothing to do with lightsabers... he could never have accomplished the things he did by a lightsaber, but that's not the point.
As for aggressive negotiations: what do you think Sideous sent Maul out to do? What was Anakin doing in ROTS against the seperatist leaders? What was Dooku doing towards the Jedi? What did Sideous do when Mace came to arrest him? aggressive as a hippopotamus in mating season!
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 2:17pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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If the fact that the Dooku fights look so more superior than the Mace fight only because of the stuntmen vs. lack of stuntmen then that is called bad moviemaking. When Dooku is portrayed as so superior to Sidious/Mace in the movies then that is the truth. If George Lucas intended otherwise, then he did a poor job. Dooku is the better swordsman, as is shown in the movies!
no,had dooku fought sidious he would have been squashed,,but what im i doing arguing with someone who insists that palpatine allowed mace to win anyway...
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ForumAuditor
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Well, Dooku was the one running away from Yoda after a few seconds, the Emperor may have beaten Yoda had HE not retreated.
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Haynesworth
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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A lot of people think that because Maul was killed by padawan Obi-Wan and Dooku owns Obi-Wan that automatically means Dooku is much better than Maul. Actually, Maul and Dooku are very equal based on what we have seen in the movies. In TPM, Maul is owning Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan at the same time. He kills Qui-Gonn and proceeds to own Obi-Wan some more, even pushing him into a pit that should of killed him. Somehow, Obi-Wan hangs on and channels his emotions over Qui-Gonn's death into an amazing force jump and grab of a lightsaber that kills the stunned Maul. Maul never expected this to happen, mainly because of his overconfidence and the fact that Obi-Wan was stuck in a pit and had no weapon. Just because Obi-Wan was able to kill Maul does not make him powerful; Maul was owning both Jedi until his death (which mainly happened because it had to in order to further the plot).
A very similar situation happens with Dooku, only it is spread out over two movies. In AOTC, Dooku owns the Master Obi-Wan and the padawan Anakin. It is basically the same situation with Maul in TPM, except Dooku doesn't kill Obi-Wan and Anakin doesn't kill Dooku. However, this basically happens in ROTS. Dooku doesn't kill Obi-Wan in that duel, but he disposes of him for the fight against Anakin. The difference here is Anakin killing Dooku not a fluke like Obi-Wan killing Maul. (This is debatable because Dooku may have been holding back on Sidious' orders, either way once Anakin goes dark side he owns Dooku, completely different from what happened to Maul). The other difference is Anakin is much more powerful than padawan Obi-Wan so him killing Dooku is much more believable.
From these scenarios it seems that Maul and Dooku are pretty much equal, a fact also confirmed by Lucas who says those two and suited Vader are all equal and about 80% power of Sidious. All of these guys are the apprentice, so if they were more powerful they would've killed Sidious and become the Master. Anakin is the only one with the potential to be more powerful than Sidious but he loses it when he gets crippled on Mustafar. He becomes a regular apprentice just like Dooku and Maul.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83 posted:
As for the laughing at the lightsaber thing, that is folly. I know that Sideous used other means to create his Empire... that was not because he had lost faith in a lightsaber, it was more that he saw and understood how he could do it. It was genius. He was brilliant - it had nothing to do with lightsabers... he could never have accomplished the things he did by a lightsaber, but that's not the point.
As for aggressive negotiations: what do you think Sideous sent Maul out to do? What was Anakin doing in ROTS against the seperatist leaders? What was Dooku doing towards the Jedi? What did Sideous do when Mace came to arrest him? aggressive as a hippopotamus in mating season!
Who drew a light saber first?
Mace and the other Jedi in the posse?
or Sidious?
Now about AnaVader...
"I want you to go to the Mustafarrr System, wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the rest of the Separatist Leaders..."
"When my newww ahhhppprentice, Darrrth Vader arrives... heee, will take care of you..."
***
Vader wasn't involved in any negotiations with the CIS leaders, he was sent there to terminate their verbal agreement with Sidious.
"The Separatist's have been taken care of... Mahsterrr."
In Dark Lord, Sidious himself says that the Sith have moved past their lightsaber days and that their use of the weapon is "if only to humiliate the Jedi."
Semantics aside, we both agree there is more to ursurping control of the galaxy than by the use of lightsabers alone. To that end, Dooku pales in comparison to Darth Sidious.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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emporergerner
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Dooku was strong very strong at that, but he was no where in the Emporers league. An example of this is there force lighting, Yoda throws Dooku's back after about a minute of struggling. But in ROTS Yoda has a very very hard time dealing with Sidous lighting.
I think if Dooku would have had the potential to be just as stong Palpatine would have kept him instead of having him whacked. 
Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
-----signature-----
Student of Vancouver film school
"What fuels your power with the Force but your passion? The stronger, darker emotions. Anger, hatred, fear… these passions empower us."
" I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. "
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Darth_Gangsta
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:27pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I didn't read all 7 pages -- but, has anyone made the point about Dooku being more interested in political gain then the Darkside? Unlike Maul, Vader, Sidious, it appears that Dooku has joined the Darkside more because he is disenchanted with the Jedi and the current order of the galaxy. He seems to be [i]using[i] the Darkside of the force for other means, not revelling in it like Sidious. Of course, Sidious is also interested in Galactic change, but Sith domination and revenge on the Jedi is what he wants.
Sadly, this whole topic reminds me how incomplete Dooku's character was... he could have been soooo much more than what Lucas did with him.....
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emporergerner
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:35pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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^^^^Good point you should make a thread on it. I do not belive there is one out there.
Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
-----signature-----
Student of Vancouver film school
"What fuels your power with the Force but your passion? The stronger, darker emotions. Anger, hatred, fear… these passions empower us."
" I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. "
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Darth_Gangsta posted:
Sadly, this whole topic reminds me how incomplete Dooku's character was... he could have been soooo much more than what Lucas did with him.....
The same could be said for many characters in the GFFA.
Darth Maul would have been the ideal life-long apprentice, IMO.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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SithStarSlayer: Ofcourse the Jedi had their sabers ignited; after all they were dealing with a sith-lord...
But mind you, they didn't say that they had come to kill him... they had intentionally come to arrest him! He attacked with a lightsaber!
Anakin didn't discuss with the seperatist leaders, but he killed them - aggressive negotiations as Anakin himself called it... I think the films rather show that the Sith don't even negotiate - they draw their blade first and asks later. Unlike the Jedi if I may add
And as for the books. I couldn't care less... I only use the films as canon, since they are what we are discussing! Books based on films rarely turn out good... the quotes I've seen from various books makes me believe this even more - poor language in many cases, and well...
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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The fact that Sidious is Dooku's master has nothing to do with lightsaber skills (Anakin being superior to Obi-Wan for instance).
The fact that Palpatine is Dooku's Master proves the Emperor is a better swordsman. Anakin was no longer Obi-Wan's apprentice at the time they fought. He was a full-fledged Jedi Knight and had surpassed his former teacher. Gillard said that only Mace, Yoda, the Emperor, and Anakin are level 9's. Dooku is at a lower level. According to the McDiarmid quotes in my signature, the Emperor is a much faster swordsman than Dooku is.
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Non so d'onde viene quel tenero affetto. http://boards.outerrimsieges.com
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/05 6:00pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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but palpatine being dooku's master has evrything to do with their powers.thats how it works with the sith,the stronger is the master and as soon as the aprenttice becomes strong enough to kill the master he does it.
dooku never tried to kill palpatine because:
1- he was too coward to try
2- he cant take on palpatine
i chose both
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WEEBACCA
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 1:07am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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sithrules70 posted:
no,had dooku fought sidious he would have been squashed,,but what im i doing arguing with someone who insists that palpatine allowed mace to win anyway...
Okay,Okay - Mace beat Sidious fair and square. And Mace is even more powerful than Obi-Wan. Happy now? 
sithrules70 posted:
but palpatine being dooku's master has evrything to do with their powers.thats how it works with the sith,the stronger is the master and as soon as the aprenttice becomes strong enough to kill the master he does it.
dooku never tried to kill palpatine because:
1- he was too coward to try
2- he cant take on palpatine
i chose both
For once I agree with you, sithrules70!
1. Dooku did not dare to take on Palpatine (which may explain why he wanted Obi-Wan to join him in destroying the Sith Lord).
2. Sidious is to powerful so Dooku would have been killed.
I still think that Dooku is better with a lightsaber though...
-----signature-----
There is no emotion; there is peace
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge
There is no passion; there is serenity
There is no death; there is the Force
--Member of the Official Darth Vader Fan Club--
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maxwell1234
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 3:45am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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farrellg posted:
The fact that Sidious is Dooku's master has nothing to do with lightsaber skills (Anakin being superior to Obi-Wan for instance).
The fact that Palpatine is Dooku's Master proves the Emperor is a better swordsman. Anakin was no longer Obi-Wan's apprentice at the time they fought. He was a full-fledged Jedi Knight and had surpassed his former teacher. Gillard said that only Mace, Yoda, the Emperor, and Anakin are level 9's. Dooku is at a lower level. According to the McDiarmid quotes in my signature, the Emperor is a much faster swordsman than Dooku is.
You place way too much importance on those silly McDiarmid quotes.
All the evidence in the movie itself completely contradicts Ian's silly claim that his character wields a lightsaber 500 times as fast as anyone else. If he did that, noone could even defend one swipe, let alone go toe to toe with him.
Kit Fisto blocked a few swipes from Sidious before going down, so there is no way in hell Sidious wielded a saber '500' times as fast as anyone else. Hell, not even twice as fast. AOTC Yoda and ROTS Anakin and Obi Wan were all faster than Sidious on screen.
Even taking out the posse, it didn't look like the Emperor was that fast. Hell, from when he drew his blade back to when he thrusted at the first posse Jedi, there was about a full second delay. In that time, Anakin, Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan could all have killed Sidious where he stood. The posse Jedi were just slow to react. Sidious wasn't that quick.
Anakin's speed and furious onslaught on Mustafar was easily the most impressive display of awesome offensive lightsaber skill we've seen in the whole saga and Obi-Wan's fast and damn near impenetrable defences were the best we've seen all saga too.
In terms of Sidious vs Dooku, yes, I would say the Emperor is faster (and more psychotic) with his attacks than the Count, but Dooku is more precise and controlled.
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/05 6:54am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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WEEBACCA posted:
Okay,Okay - Mace beat Sidious fair and square. And Mace is even more powerful than Obi-Wan. Happy now?
but of course 
WEEBACCA posted:
For once I agree with you, sithrules70!
1. Dooku did not dare to take on Palpatine (which may explain why he wanted Obi-Wan to join him in destroying the Sith Lord).
2. Sidious is to powerful so Dooku would have been killed.
I still think that Dooku is better with a lightsaber though...
finally and agreement *hands WEEBACCA a beer*
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