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Topic:
Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Haynesworth
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/7/05 4:26pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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A lot of people are skewing the argument by claiming that Dooku could beat Mace. However, there is no movie evidence for this at all. Even if it did happen in the EU, it was probably when Dooku was in his prime and Mace was a padawan. Everyone is just hating on Mace by claiming that Dooku beat him, but by the time of ROTS, there is absolutely no proof that Dooku is better than Mace.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/7/05 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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tkip posted:
I think too many people are splitting peas here. Dooku was the apprentice of Sidious. Whether at some point, he would have challenged or worked from behind the scenes to overthrow Sidious, we'll never know.
Dooku was soundly defeated by Anakin. Dooku had trouble with Yoda. Resorted to to cheap tactics and kept Yoda busy while making his escape. Yoda had a hell of a time with Sidious.
Yet....... Sidious tried to run after Yoda throws him across the room. And he certainly did look startled.
Yoda runs only after losing his footing and falling quite a distance below and knowing Sidious was still up there somewhere and that the clones were going to be called in at some point.
He didn't run because Sidious was winning. He ran because the circumstances had turned against him. A whole world of diffence here.
I agree with the first three paragraphs you wrote.
I disagree with the last two, here's a couple reasons why:
Sidious chucked pods around the Senate Chamber like I throw vanilla wafers into the wind.
Yoda was only able to control one.
When Yoda fell, Yoda was beaten, Clones or no Clones.
If Yoda felt any different he would not have told Bail Organa, "Into exhile I must go, failed I have."
***
IMO, Only a beaten and humiliated man would banish himself to self imposed exhile. Yoda went to face him, confident that he would end Sidious's rule before it ever got started.
Didn't happen.
To the victor goes the spoils, Sidious got the "Throne to the Galaxy", Yoda got the swamp. When you look at it that way, then all you can see is that Sidious won.
If two fight, and, one wins, then what about the other?
Yep... a big 'ol "L" for "LOSER!" on their forehead.
I love the little green friend, but Sidious kicked his arse.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
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Count-Tyranus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/8/05 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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tkip posted:
I think too many people are splitting peas here. Dooku was the apprentice of Sidious. Whether at some point, he would have challenged or worked from behind the scenes to overthrow Sidious, we'll never know.
Dooku was soundly defeated by Anakin. Dooku had trouble with Yoda. Resorted to to cheap tactics and kept Yoda busy while making his escape. Yoda had a hell of a time with Sidious.
Yet....... Sidious tried to run after Yoda throws him across the room. And he certainly did look startled.
Yoda runs only after losing his footing and falling quite a distance below and knowing Sidious was still up there somewhere and that the clones were going to be called in at some point.
He didn't run because Sidious was winning. He ran because the circumstances had turned against him. A whole world of diffence here.
Dooku didn't "escape" from Yoda. He was on his way out when the Jedi caught up to him in the first place. Dooku's goal was to get off the planet and to Sidious. He achieved that goal despite interference.
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Darth_Gangsta
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
12/8/05 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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If Sidious and Dooku fight each other, Sidious wins everytime. As I've hinted at twice in this thread, IMO from reading EU, (outside Movie Canon of course), Dooku would never seriously try to overthrow Sidious. He did try to recruit Obi-Wan, true, but I'll argue that Dooku is trying to do this for political reasons. Dooku is never shown to be consumed by the Darkside like Anakin or Sidious, he just uses or takes advantage of the powers of the Darkside as an instrument to affect change. Of course, this is ALL speculation, unless you consider elements from outside the movies.
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sith_rising
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/8/05 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I think that Dooku was genuinely interested in recruiting Obi-Wan as his Sith pupil. Of course, if Palpatine caught wind of this, he could hide his intentions by saying that it was for political reasons. If he weren't so darn incorruptable, Obi-Wan would be a very powerful Sith. I think Dooku wants to overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy alongside the student of Qui-Gon.
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Darth_Gangsta
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
12/8/05 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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True, Lucas has mirrored the Vader speech to Luke from ESB here. But, even still, in the movies, and novels, Dooku seems to be more like a disgruntled Jedi than anything else. Yes, he has adopted the Darkside, but for what reasons? Everything about him is political? Does he really care about the Sith taking over the galaxy? I think he is looking more for people to join his separatist movement and asks Obi-Wan because he wants powerful people around him to aid his cause. But, on the other hand, maybe in Lucas' mind Dooku was taking a more subtle approach to ousting Sidious.
This is what is so maddening about Lucas and Star Wars --- I always want to know more!!!!!
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WitchKing66
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
12/8/05 4:50pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I think that Lucas was genuinely not sure what was going on with AOTC
AOTC was like what i do in life:
CFD computational fluid dynamics; u have five equations for conservation of mass, three for momentum equations and for one for conservation of energy;
five equations with four unknowns creates an impossible situation where the fluid mechanics equations cannot be solved analytically or numerically
samething is with AOTC, there is too many unknowns with few known parameters, which creates an open-ended problem that cannot solved in a conventional method. thus some of those varying parameters needs to be 'fixed' so a better conclusion can be drawn. i think dooku is at the center of the problem;
ex: do the jedi know dooku is a sith lord at the end of AOTC (IMO they dont, though they know he uses dark powers),
do the jedi know dooku is a sith lord at the start of ROTS; (yes, its mentioned)
than if they know he is Lord Tyranus, they should also know who hired Jango Fett and should take twice serving with the Clones (and please dont tell me, they he is a Sith but they dont know his Sith indentity)
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 7:47am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Darth_Gangsta posted:
"If Sidious and Dooku fight each other, Sidious wins everytime. As I've hinted at twice in this thread, IMO from reading EU, (outside Movie Canon of course), Dooku would never seriously try to overthrow Sidious. He did try to recruit Obi-Wan, true, but I'll argue that Dooku is trying to do this for political reasons. Dooku is never shown to be consumed by the Darkside like Anakin or Sidious, he just uses or takes advantage of the powers of the Darkside as an instrument to affect change. Of course, this is ALL speculation, unless you consider elements from outside the movies."
We are on the same page about Dooku, then. As I posted earlier in this thread:
Good observations about the Count.
I watched parts of AOTC and ROTS again last night. Here is something to ponder regarding the subject of Sith power in this thread.
In AOTC, Yoda said: "Counnnt Dooooooku, The dark side... I sense in you..." Now we all know that Dooku is also the Sith Lord Tyranus, yet Yoda only mentions "sensing the dark side IN HIM."
In ROTS, Yoda said: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader..." I found it interesting that Yoda would paint two Sith Lords with different colors.
One Sith is consumed, while the other Sith is just... tainted?
I wonder if these quotes from Yoda bear witness to the level of dark side power within each character.
Worth debating, that's for sure.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 7:49am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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OOOPsss...
stupid server... 
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 8:00am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83 posted:
sithrules70 posted:
but vader was sidious's underling how can he be best ?
But Anakin was OBW's underling, how can he be the best? Sometimes the apprentice is better than the master - but the master has the knowledge...
vader was never stronger than sidious IMO ,not yet in ROTS and deffinitely not in the OT.
Rossa83 posted:
I must refrain myself from not saying that Anakin is better than OBW though, but he is more powerful... perhaps he was even more powerful in AOTC - and then he WAS an apprentice...
in that we agree,more powerful but not better
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MacetheCouncillor
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 8:33am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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sithrules70 posted:
vader was never stronger than sidious IMO ,not yet in ROTS and deffinitely not in the OT.
I agree. And I'd add Yoda and Mace to that. They were all stronger than Anakin/Vader ever became.
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 8:37am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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MacetheCouncillor posted:
sithrules70 posted:
vader was never stronger than sidious IMO ,not yet in ROTS and deffinitely not in the OT.
I agree. And I'd add Yoda and Mace to that. They were all stronger than Anakin/Vader ever became.
of course i meant yoda and mace as well but rossa only made reference to sidious and of the 3 top guys i think sidious with a saber is deffinitelly the bottom one,his enormous force power make up for that though
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MacetheCouncillor
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 8:39am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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sithrules70 posted:
MacetheCouncillor posted:
sithrules70 posted:
vader was never stronger than sidious IMO ,not yet in ROTS and deffinitely not in the OT.
I agree. And I'd add Yoda and Mace to that. They were all stronger than Anakin/Vader ever became.
of course i meant yoda and mace as well but rossa only made reference to sidious and of the 3 top guys i think sidious with a saber is deffinitelly the bottom one,his enormous force power make up for that though
Agreed. Sidious' Force power deserves incredible credit.
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WEEBACCA
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 9:19am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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WitchKing66 posted:
than if they know he is Lord Tyranus, they should also know who hired Jango Fett and should take twice serving with the Clones (and please dont tell me, they he is a Sith but they dont know his Sith indentity)
Actually, I'm not so sure they know his Sith Identity. Jango reveals that he was hired by a man called Tyrannus (no Darth-name is revealed, so the name itself doesn't tell it's a Sith they're dealing with) on one of the moons of Bogden. Count Dooku never reveals that his name is Tyrannus. The Jedi continues calling him Dooku both in AOTC and in ROTS. So I'm not that sure they know that Dooku is Tyrannus (or that Tyrannus is a Sith or some ordinary person). 
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/9/05 9:27am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Oh they know by the time of Episode III. At the end of Episode II, I think they had a pretty good idea.
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