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Topic:
Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83 posted:
cbtark posted:
I know this is EU but in Dark Lord it is said the Sith only use lightsabers to humilate the jedi and that the Sith evolved past the lightsaber.
And as you said - that's just EU! Try tell that humiliating bit to Maul or Dooku...
If I remember correctly, the end of Sidious's light saber quote was "...if only to humiliate the Jedi."
Actually, it really has nothing to do with the EU.
The Sith moved past the use of sabers.
The films support this line of thinking.
How else did Sidious reign in the Trade Federation? Did he run around and threaten them by waving his red glow stick? The Jedi spoke of "Aggressive Negotiations", meaning, that they drew their sabers as a show of force. The Sith, no longer relied on their sabers in the same way. They only have a light saber because Jedi carry them, not because they want to wave them around every chance they get. Only arrogant Jedi do that.
Ultimately, to defeat the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, the Sith Order evolved and adopted new strategies. The Jedi Order remained stagnant.
I think the humiliation quote, was intended more like this: "To beat the Jedi with their weapon of choice, a light saber, is the greatest way to humiliate them..."
The Sith didn't need to use light sabers to overtake the galaxy like the Jedi used light sabers to defend it...
Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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WEEBACCA
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 11:56am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?[/b]
I agree. Dooku has no chance to beat Sidious. Sidous is way too powerful. But when it comes to pure lightsaber combat (no force-powers allowed) I think Dooku would give Sidious a fair challenge.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 1:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Rossa83 posted:
cbtark posted:
I know this is EU but in Dark Lord it is said the Sith only use lightsabers to humilate the jedi and that the Sith evolved past the lightsaber.
And as you said - that's just EU! Try tell that humiliating bit to Maul or Dooku...
If I remember correctly, the end of Sidious's light saber quote was "...if only to humiliate the Jedi."
Actually, it really has nothing to do with the EU.
The Sith moved past the use of sabers.
The films support this line of thinking.
How else did Sidious reign in the Trade Federation? Did he run around and threaten them by waving his red glow stick? The Jedi spoke of "Aggressive Negotiations", meaning, that they drew their sabers as a show of force. The Sith, no longer relied on their sabers in the same way. They only have a light saber because Jedi carry them, not because they want to wave them around every chance they get. Only arrogant Jedi do that.
Ultimately, to defeat the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, the Sith Order evolved and adopted new strategies. The Jedi Order remained stagnant.
I think the humiliation quote, was intended more like this: "To beat the Jedi with their weapon of choice, a light saber, is the greatest way to humiliate them..."
The Sith didn't need to use light sabers to overtake the galaxy like the Jedi used light sabers to defend it...
Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?
Wow, this big post and absolutely no substance to what you say. No place in the films do we even get a glimpse of what you argue here... How come the Sith attack the Jedi with lightsabers then? You can't use the EU when it's not explicit in the movies as well..
I'll give you credit for the non-lightsaber use in Palpatine for the majority of his plans... however - he would not have survived without it - he drew against Mace and lost... he drew agains Yoda, and it didn't seem he could compete with him either with a saber
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Haynesworth
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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sabarte posted:
If Yoda was in control of the fight Dooku would have never left that hanger. Dooku ended that fight when he wanted, and got away. Yoda failed to kill, capture, or stop him from leaving the planet. That's a loss. Neither of them scored a hit, and Dooku was not beaten at the time he created the only distraction that would give him enough time to start his ship up.
Everyone says Sidious beat Yoda because Yoda failed to kill him and had to flee. Also, Sidious was going to call reinforcement clone troopers in. But if that's the way it works, than Dooku lost because he failed to beat or kill Yoda and he ended up fleeing. Clones were also on their way to aid Yoda. It is the same situation, so if Sidious beat Yoda because he ended up fleeing, then Yoda beat Dooku because he ended up fleeing.
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Count-Tyranus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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You are ignoring the fact that Yoda and Dooku's intent before the battles occured were very different.
Yoda aimed to kill Sidious. That was his goal. He failed.
Dooku needed to get off Geonosis, he did, despite the best efforts of three of the more powerful Jedi.
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Haynesworth
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/13/05 5:35pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Well if you are looking at their goal, then yes, Dooku did succeed and Yoda did fail. But if Dooku was more powerful than Yoda, wouldn't he have been able to beat him, instead of distracting him with Anakin and Obi-Wan to allow himself to escape. I think that while Yoda and Sidious were clearly on the same level, Sidious bested him, and the same would be true for Yoda and Dooku. I think Sidious>Yoda>Dooku, but it's pretty close, and we did not see enough to make a true judgement.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 7:51am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83 posted:
SithStarSlayer posted:
Rossa83 posted:
[quote=cbtark]I know this is EU but in Dark Lord it is said the Sith only use lightsabers to humilate the jedi and that the Sith evolved past the lightsaber.
And as you said - that's just EU! Try tell that humiliating bit to Maul or Dooku...
If I remember correctly, the end of Sidious's light saber quote was "...if only to humiliate the Jedi."
Actually, it really has nothing to do with the EU.
The Sith moved past the use of sabers.
The films support this line of thinking.
How else did Sidious reign in the Trade Federation? Did he run around and threaten them by waving his red glow stick? The Jedi spoke of "Aggressive Negotiations", meaning, that they drew their sabers as a show of force. The Sith, no longer relied on their sabers in the same way. They only have a light saber because Jedi carry them, not because they want to wave them around every chance they get. Only arrogant Jedi do that.
Ultimately, to defeat the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, the Sith Order evolved and adopted new strategies. The Jedi Order remained stagnant.
I think the humiliation quote, was intended more like this: "To beat the Jedi with their weapon of choice, a light saber, is the greatest way to humiliate them..."
The Sith didn't need to use light sabers to overtake the galaxy like the Jedi used light sabers to defend it...
Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?
***
Wow, this big post and absolutely no substance to what you say. No place in the films do we even get a glimpse of what you argue here... How come the Sith attack the Jedi with lightsabers then? You can't use the EU when it's not explicit in the movies as well..
I'll give you credit for the non-lightsaber use in Palpatine for the majority of his plans... however - he would not have survived without it - he drew against Mace and lost... he drew agains Yoda, and it didn't seem he could compete with him either with a saber[/quote]
Wow, we must NOT be watching the same films...
Big difference between saber dueling with Jedi, and taking over the Trade Federation without the use of a light saber.
Sidious drew first against Mace and the Posse? Not in the film I saw.
Oh, and, Sidious did survive without his 2nd saber. Just because you didn't see him lose it onscreen, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Come to think of it, Yoda also drew first...
Makes my first post even stronger... now that I've had a second glimpse.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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TaradosGon
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 8:44am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I'd that Dooku is not as strong as Sidious.
In his fight with Sidious Yoda and Sidious exchange lightning and a force push sending each to opposite sides of the room, which suggests to me that they are equal in their use of the force. This then turns into a saber battle where Yoda is able to disarm Sidious who later is able to disarm Yoda which climaxes with the struggle in the senate pod with the lightning ball which again suggest they are equal with the force.
Throughout most of the fight both sides were struggling. And at the very beginning neither could block the others' force powers.
With Dooku it is more ambiguous as to whether or not he held his own against Yoda. It's my interpretation that he was beaten.
When the battle begins they start showing off their force powers (which for Yoda consists of throwing Dooku's own power back at him and absorbing it).
Yoda: "Much to learn you still have." (He's confident as ever. Didn't break a sweat).
Dooku: "It is obvious that this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." (Dooku's just being arrogant here IMO, I think he really knows that he doesn't stand a chance against Yoda with the force so challenges him to a lightsaber duel because he thinks he'll fair better).
Yoda enlightens him and pulls out his saber. They fight. It ends with a saber lock:
Yoda confidently says: "Fought well you have my old padawan." (with "but now its over" implied).
Dooku (his face quivering, probably in anger and frustration): "This is just the beginning!"
So, IMO I think that Yoda beat Dooku, that to Yoda it was more as if they were sparring, he knew he could beat Dooku but was just enlightening him and being arrogant, which allowed Dooku to escape.
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Obi-Twice-Kenobi
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 9:00am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Count-Tyranus posted:
You are ignoring the fact that Yoda and Dooku's intent before the battles occured were very different.
Yoda's primary goal was NOT to kill Dooku, but rather to arrest him in order to gain further information about the Sith because the Count was keeping essential info about the Sith plans and their involvment in the war. During their battle, the Jedi master was forced to chose between his primary goal and saving his fellow Jedi. Chosing option 2, he had to give his enemy the chance to flee.
The Sith on the other hand wanted to escape, but also clearly intended to KILL Anakin, ObiWan and Yoda. He achieved his first goal due to Yoda's decision explained above, but obviously failed to achieve the second.
Yoda aimed to kill Sidious. That was his goal. He failed.
Obviously. And Sidious failed to kill Yoda as well. But aren't you confusing Ep2 with Ep3 now?
Dooku needed to get off Geonosis, he did, despite the best efforts of three of the more powerful Jedi.
True, but not because he was more powerful than Yoda (on the contrary), but because he managed to "outwit" the Jedi. Had this been a traditional one-on-one without any outside influence, Dooku wouldn't have had the same advantage and opportunity to distract Yoda.
Here's also an interesting observation regarding Yoda's encounters with the 2 Sith:
- against Dooku, the two fighters were evenly matched in force powers, but Yoda had the advantage in the lightsaber department.
- against Siodious, Yoda again had the (slightly) superior LS skills (He managed to disarm the emperor with his saber. Unfortunately this scene was cut from the movie, nevertheless it's still true), but (slightly) lacked the force powers of his enemy.
As a conslusion, it seems to me that despite the common belief Count Dooku was pretty much equal to his master in LS skills, and Sidious masterhood was based mainly on superior force powers and political genius.
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Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Darth_Magi
Posted: 12/13 9:18pm
Subject: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda"
"I dont consider it a LOSS. It was more of a stalemate. Yoda decided in his head that lightsaber duel would not defeat Sidious(ROTS Novel) It would takwe something else entirely.....a peaceful path....which allowed Luke to sway Anakin to destroy Sidious in ROTJ.
As Yoda said in the Novel..... "the Sith had evolved and the Jedi had not". The Sith had learned to use (political) combat as their weapon against the Jedi.
Arrogance was not Yoda's alone. He realizes his error and is very humble in ESB and ROTJ. The path he led Luke down allowed him to rely on his feelings and intuitions rather than his discipline and knowledge of lighsaber combat.
Anakin had it all along. The key to the path of the light was not discipline but trust in one's feelings......something the Jedi frowned upon during the end of time of the Republic. Anakin had dark feelings just as Luke did. Yoda's guidance allowed Luke to make his OWN decision based upon HIS feelings....."
This fits in well enough with this topic...
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Count-Tyranus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I do not think Dooku intended to kill any of those three Jedi in AOTC.
Killing them was incidental to his escape.
1. He had warned Obi-Wan to back down and didn't seem too interested in fighting. Of course, after dominating Obi-Wan, he looked as if he would kill him. So maybe he thought better of it and decided Kenobi is better off dead than alive.
2. He did not intend to kill Anakin. He merely disarmed him (literally), and turned off his sabre at the conlusion of the fight.
3. Just as Yoda did not intend to kill Dooku, I do not think Dooku intended to kill Yoda. They fought, but without much malice and I think Dooku merely wanted to show off, knock Yoda out of action and get the flock out of there before Mace and a battalion of clones showed up.
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sabarte
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/14/05 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Dooku was telegraphing the Obi-Wan thing so hard that you could argue it could be to force the incoming Anakin to block. Especially since, (according to the AOTC novelization and what I can see of the fight) he pulled both prior blows. I think there was also a 'reveal yourself to the Jedi so they're looking for you and not me' order by Sidious involved.
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sithrules70
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
12/26/05 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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]how do you define "STRONG" ??
by their skills ? then maybe dooku is equal
but by the overall picture ? skills/knowlede/force/raw power dooku is not as strong as sidious
sidious = the master
dooku = the servant
is the same than in the OT, vader didnt rule the galaxy by then because he was too weak to overthrow sidious,the same for dooku,he is no more than cripple vader
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Charn
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
1/19/06 3:51am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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bump.
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until you wake up
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Lord-Scith
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
1/22/06 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Dooku was not as powerful as Sids in my opinion or he probably would have tried to take his place as is Sith tradition.
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