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Topic:
Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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DS_Emp_Viper
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
1/22/06 9:13pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Rossa83 posted:
SithStarSlayer posted:
Rossa83 posted:
[quote=cbtark]I know this is EU but in Dark Lord it is said the Sith only use lightsabers to humilate the jedi and that the Sith evolved past the lightsaber.
And as you said - that's just EU! Try tell that humiliating bit to Maul or Dooku...
If I remember correctly, the end of Sidious's light saber quote was "...if only to humiliate the Jedi."
Actually, it really has nothing to do with the EU.
The Sith moved past the use of sabers.
The films support this line of thinking.
How else did Sidious reign in the Trade Federation? Did he run around and threaten them by waving his red glow stick? The Jedi spoke of "Aggressive Negotiations", meaning, that they drew their sabers as a show of force. The Sith, no longer relied on their sabers in the same way. They only have a light saber because Jedi carry them, not because they want to wave them around every chance they get. Only arrogant Jedi do that.
Ultimately, to defeat the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, the Sith Order evolved and adopted new strategies. The Jedi Order remained stagnant.
I think the humiliation quote, was intended more like this: "To beat the Jedi with their weapon of choice, a light saber, is the greatest way to humiliate them..."
The Sith didn't need to use light sabers to overtake the galaxy like the Jedi used light sabers to defend it...
Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?
[quote]
Wow, this big post and absolutely no substance to what you say. No place in the films do we even get a glimpse of what you argue here... How come the Sith attack the Jedi with lightsabers then? You can't use the EU when it's not explicit in the movies as well..
I'll give you credit for the non-lightsaber use in Palpatine for the majority of his plans... however - he would not have survived without it - he drew against Mace and lost... he drew agains Yoda, and it didn't seem he could compete with him either with a saber[/quote]
Actually the film does support it, Palpatine only uses it when he has too...and hence his line to Luke in ROTJ:
Vader: His lightsaber...
Emperor:Ah yes, a jedi's weapon..much like your father's
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
1/23/06 12:23am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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Agreed with the issue of the Sith and the use of lightsabers.
Just a little question: Does anyone else get irritated by the fact that the prequels have forced us into thinking in terms of sabre skill and Force power?
"Oh, so and so would win a purely saber fight, but so and so would totally pwn him with the power of the Force"
Granted, this was always the forum "Blank vs Blank" way of looking at things, but I came from the school of thought that all that mattered to a Jedi was their ability with the Force. After all, you cannot actually *use* a lightsaber without drawing on the Force. Ergo, the most powerful Force practitioners should be the most skilled lightsaber duellists. Therefore, the stronger Force wielder should always beat the weaker Force wielder in a straight out sabre duel. The better you can channel the Force, the better you can use a sabre. Simple.
When Obi-Wan taught Luke lightsaber basics, there was no "you must use this stance, and tilt you wrists in this way, and consciously channel the Force in this manner and use this style" it was just, "stretch out with your feelings". That was much more elegant and... I dunno, less... technical.
Urg. I just get so irritated that the supposed "most powerful Sith that there ever was in either EU or the films" got *beaten* by Mace Windu. Therefore I really don't think Palpatine deserves that reputation anymore... greatest, sure - you can't deny the man's accomplishments - but not most powerful. Give that accolade to a Sith that doesn't get kicked in the face.
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brook_33
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
1/24/06 9:34pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I think that if Sidious was a level 9, then Dooku was a 7.5 or 8.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/24/06 11:17pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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If the Sith had moved beyond lightsabers it was not a wise choice it seems. Maul was killed by one. Dooku was killed by one. Sideous was defeated by one, only to be rescued by Anakin. The Jedi were actually superior with a saber. The top-Jedi mind you.
The sith didn't use a saber for their plans because a frontal attack wouldn't do. As Dooku says: "you're greatly outnumbered old friend" well, perhaps not old friend, but still outnumbered. They had to use other tactics. I'm not saying that Palpatine wasn't a great manipulator - he was THE best. He was there at the right place at the right time, much like Hitler was really. It doesn't prove him superior in any way. Vader still has much belief in a Saber. In ROTJ he says that Luke's skills are complete now that he has built his own lightsaber. Vader was a sith. Initially the saber, as I've come to understand it, was a Jedi's weapon, so you can interprete Sideous' words in ROTJ any way really.
The fact is that all Sith in the saga was actually defeated by a saber (by defeated I do not mean killed however).
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mjerome3
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/06 12:53am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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It's hard to believe that Count Dooku could duel with Yoda, had tremendous amounts of knowledge when it came to the Force as he stated to Yoda on Geonosis, that Yoda could throw Sidious around like a rag doll, yet Dooku is incapable of defeating Sidious himself. Dooku was well respected within the Jedi Order for a reason, yet fell to the dark side and became Lord Tyranus. Sidious is more powerful than Dooku supposedly, yet Yoda countered everything Sidious dished out, and Dooku and Yoda fended off one another in their own contest.
I'll never understand why Mace and Yoda can throw and kick Sidious around, yet Count Dooku, with all of his experience, knowledge, and power, can not....it just doesn't make sense.
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May the Force be with you- Han Solo
May the Force be with you- Qui-Gon Jinn
May the Force be with you- Anakin Skywalker
The Force will be with you...always- Obi-Wan Kenobi
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/25/06 2:28pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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i wouldn't say Mace threw anybody around, Sidious never intended to kill him.
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mjerome3
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/06 3:50pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I don't quite buy that. So, Mace is the second baddest Jedi in the galaxy during that time and he goes to arrest the Chancellor. The Chancellor is playing possum with Mace because he wants Anakin to witness the act of treason instead of it being a coinidence that Sidious got his behind kicked and was about to die when Anakin walked in to save the Chancellor?
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May the Force be with you- Luke Skywalker
May the Force be with you- Han Solo
May the Force be with you- Qui-Gon Jinn
May the Force be with you- Anakin Skywalker
The Force will be with you...always- Obi-Wan Kenobi
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/25/06 3:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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*CACKLE*"If Lord Tyranus were stronger... wouldn't he be here, to tell you himself ..." *CACKLE*
sorry just a little humor to keep the mood light...
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/25/06 4:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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I wouldn't say Mace is the 2nd baddest jedi, i would say the 4th.
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WEEBACCA
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
2/6/06 7:12am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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IMO Sidious is far stronger in the Force than Dooku, but I think Dooku's saber skills would give Sidious a real challenge!
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ZamWesell44
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
2/6/06 10:11am
Subject:
RE: Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?
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i think its is possible, Dooku was different than the other sith Maul was evil, DV wanted power, Dooku went to the darkside b/c of politics, and he disagreed with the jedi.
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