darth_frared posted:so what the jedi do, when they use the force is not not bending it to their will? *blinks* they simply allow things to happen? they do not control it? well, what do they do with it?
get in gear posted:But in SW, we are told, compassion conquers darkness. Surely compassion can only be measured by intent - not action. Palpatine can save Anakin's life, maybe even show genuine concern - but, ultimately his concern is that his prize his damaged; and his intent is to use Anakin to dominate the galaxy.
get in gear posted:The Jedi, even when manipulating the Force, can still be acting out its will - so long as they are constantly listening to that will and letting it govern their actions. It can seem like a contradiction, but it makes sense to me.
get in gear posted: In a galaxy where the "evil" actions - intentional or otherwise - of individuals can disrupt the Force, the Jedi are sometimes called upon to manipulate the Force to restore its will. As long as that is their intention, then it is a different kettle of fish to the Sith inflicting their selfish vision on the Force.
get in gear posted:Love your new sig, by the way. The sunshine boards - LOL...
Kirk_Kanos posted:Reasons for saying so are to me clear right there is good and bad in all living things, this we know through or own life experiences aswell, the Sith are what we can concieve as Pure evil, the Jedi can then as there oppisite be concieved as the true lawful pure good, therefore, for pure balance both must exist they cancel one another out, without one or the other the Balance tips in favour to the opposing, ie. without the Sith to the good side, Without the Jedi the Dark side, so to me either both has to exist or neither exist and both be wiped out for true balance, whould it not be fair to say that without either there would be balance, is that not the way it is in RL.
sinister posted:Anakin Skywalker is either the creation of the Sith or the Force. Either way, he has been chosen by the Force to end the tyranny of the Sith.
darth_frared posted:Anakin was always going to be a Sith because it was his destiny there is such a thing as a cosmological perspective. the idea he had a choice is fine and well. a lot of people have it. but it's not *entirely* off to think he was supposed to become a sith. just give me a reason other than i like it better that he had a choice and i'll shut up.
darth-sinister posted:But see here's the thing. The Jedi were created by those who studied the Force and chose to follow it's will. They would not abuse the Force by being selfish, greedy, power hungry, hate filled, vengeful monsters.
darth-sinister posted:Anakin Skywalker is either the creation of the Sith or the Force. Either way, he has been chosen by the Force to end the tyranny of the Sith. It's the Force that wants the Sith wiped out. The Jedi are following it's will.
darth-sinister posted:Which is why the Sith could've created him. Either way, the Force was aware of a point in time in which Anakin would destroy the Sith
Darth-Natas posted:Many of the Sith in the films (including Vadar) were trained by the Jedi, but basically defected.
Darth-Natas posted:Therefore, I think it is a bit of stretch to claim that “They would not abuse the Force by being selfish, greedy, power hungry, hate filled, vengeful monsters.”because they sometimes do.
Darth-Natas posted:Furthermore, you associate the Sith and the Force in a contrasting way that I find rather inappropriate. It is not the Force which is in opposition to the Sith…it is the Jedi.
Darth-Natas posted:The Sith use the force as well as the Jedi do; it is not appropriate to try to misalign these associations in a vain attempt to confound the subject so.
Darth-Natas posted:True, the dark side of the FORCE is a little different from the other, but it is all the same thing. To claim that the force has a will to destroy part of itself makes no sense.
Darth-Natas posted:Though I will admit that Anakin’s conception is somewhat of an immaculate conception sort of ‘miracle,’ all the other Jedi are created like most other multi-celled organisms are…by other like organisms through traditional methods. The force apparently, from the films, flows through all living things…but those who have the midiclorian counts to possess ability beyond that of others are adopted into the order of the Jedi. Many of the Sith in the films (including Vadar) were trained by the Jedi, but basically defected. Therefore, I think it is a bit of stretch to claim that “They would not abuse the Force by being selfish, greedy, power hungry, hate filled, vengeful monsters.”…because they sometimes do. In a nutshell, it is the classical biblical cain and able analogy.
Darth-Natas posted:Furthermore, you associate the Sith and the Force in a contrasting way that I find rather inappropriate. It is not the Force which is in opposition to the Sith…it is the Jedi. The Sith use the force as well as the Jedi do; it is not appropriate to try to misalign these associations in a vain attempt to confound the subject so. True, the dark side of the FORCE is a little different from the other, but it is all the same thing. To claim that the force has a will to destroy part of itself makes no sense.
darth-sinister posted: Except the Jedi raise the children to not be that way. That's why they train from birth. Lucas even said if Anakin were found right away, none of this would happen as they would raise him right. The Sith came about because one Jedi discovered the Dark Side and choose to use the Force incorrectly. Others were seduced by power and their own greed. Training from birth was a result of nipping this problem in the bud.
darth-sinister posted: The Sith violate the Force with their actions. They're like a cancer. What do you do to cancer? You eradicate it to save the host. The Force is the host. The Sith are the cancer. The Jedi are the whiteblood cells. Anakin is the cure. Anakin purges the cancer to save the host and Luke will revive the whiteblood cells.
darth-sinister posted: When Darth Bane escaped the Battle of Russan, he opted to find one Apprentice who he trained from birth. When Bane died, the Apprentice became the Master and took an Apprentice for his own. Also from birth. This continued well into the time of Darth Sidious, who was already training Darth Maul from birth, when he killed Darth Plaugeis. Sidious lost Maul and because of this, he needed to turn someone. Enter Dooku who was willing to turn to the Dark Side. From Darth Tyranus to Darth Vader, Sidious needed to pit the two against each other in a contest he rigged. Unlike Dooku who would go willingly, Anakin had to be seduced into going against the Jedi teachings and his mother's upbringing. In the thousand years from the time of Darth Bane to the time of Darth Sidious, all Sith were trained from birth. Just like the Jedi were.
sinister posted:The Sith were there and were beginning to rise up in power. Palpatine was a Senator and beginning to consolidate his power, which would result in his becoming Chancellor. If the Force created Anakin, it was to destroy Sidious before he could cement his position.
Dezdmona posted:But let’s try this for a “cosmological perspective”: Anakin cannot escape his "ultimate destiny", but his "temporal fate" is malleable depending on his decisions. Anakin did not have his “temporary fate” of becoming a Sith imposed upon him*, he chose it. Palpatine manipulated Anakin’s weaknesses (fear of loss, obsessive love), into tricking him to choose to become a Sith in order to serve his own desires. By participating in his destiny, Anakin shaped his Sith fate. He was not able to change his ultimate destiny however; but that was no trick. The veil of the dark side lifted, and compassion ruled Anakin’s choice. *There is more than one place in the story where Anakin has the chance to fulfill his destiny without falling.
natas posted:To claim that the force has a will to destroy part of itself makes no sense.
darth_frared posted: well, what is your concept of the force then? everyone seems to come up with a different notion these days. let's hear yours. i'm thinking it wants to get rid off all them force users for good because they all have it wrong.
natas posted:What you mention here is a big part of the reason this discussion probably seems to go off on so many twists and turns regarding the force...people like to try and conceptualize it in their own unique way. I try to be rather dispassionate about what it is; try not to personify it in a way that gives it some sort of consciousness. Quite obviously (with all the other religious symbolism in the characters and films), Lucas had some sort of spiritual connotation in mind with its design. However, rather than assume it is some how like the power of god (that many of the proponents of it favoring the Jedi seem to take), I instead tend to regard it as merely a force of energy that exists in the universe. In the films, the Jedi often refer to it as a sort of spiritual embodiment (with a consciousness), but I tend to regard that as them personifying their goody goody intentions and use of it…sort of an extreme bias that they have been indoctrinated with by their order...to adopt to give them purpose and empowerment...to better enable them to uphold their virtues. A sort of manifest destiny, if you will.
natas posted:To use a real world analogy, nuclear power is the unleashing of a considerable amount of atomic energy…it can be used for good or it can be used for bad. What determines how it is used, is not the energy which binds atoms together, but the intentions of the people who unleash it. Human nature is dynamic; people can be very kind and compassionate…but they can also be very much the opposite. The concepts of good and evil (the cain and able analogy I provided earlier), is what makes the distinction…not the inanimate forces of the universe which act upon them. Does that answer your question?
OBIWAN-JR posted:>>>> I try to be rather dispassionate about what it is; try not to personify it in a way that gives it some sort of consciousness. But if the Force has no consciousness, Natas, then what is the Will of the Force.....? Excellent post, BTW, Dez. Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Sith and thereby bring balance to the Force. HOW he chooses to do that is down to him, and the decisions he makes. His choices are not pre-destined.
