Darth-Natas posted:I understand the whole concept of disciplines being instilled in the very young to reinforce the strengths of their convictions. We have no disagreement there. However, Lucas created the storyline, so using him as an example of how Anakin might not have turned is sort of pointless. Whether or not you realize it, you are implying here that the dark side of the force is so seductive, that it is somehow necessary for Jedi to be indoctrinated at an early age to keep them from being corrupted by its overwhelming attraction in the future. Also, referring to the dark side of the force as the force being used “incorrectly” is a biased argument. I understand why you are taking that position, but in order for this discussion to be considered objectively, it would probably be best to refrain from trying to stack the deck in your favor…so to speak.
Darth-Natas posted:This too is a biased position on your own interpretation of what is and what is not the force. The force is the force…it is not some sort of all consuming goodness…otherwise, the Sith would not be able to use it, being that they are evil. Don’t you see?
Darth-Natas posted:The history lesson on the Sith wasn’t really necessary; I’ve seen the movies. I’ve highlighted the…well, highlights. One of the foundations of your position is that the Sith and Jedi both train their disciples from birth…and the importance of that has already been discussed. However, the flaw in your argument is Dooku; was he not trained from birth…was he not once the padawan of Yoda himself? Additionally, so if as you say, “Anakin had to be seduced against the Jedi teachings,” but was not raised from birth, why then is it that Dooku (who was) so easily turned? It is not a convincing argument…clearly, the force is the force and both the Sith and the Jedi use the same force. I argue that the only thing that keeps more Jedi from adopting the dark side is their order’s efforts to keep them from doing so. Likewise, the Sith also try to bias their disciples to keep them from straying from their own teachings. To suggest that one side is somehow acting upon the other like a “cancer” is a circular argument that can objectively be seen from either side if one is truly objective about it.
darth_frared posted:sure a very convenient way of explaining things. why did the force allow sid to come to power in the first place, huh? and if anakin's sole purpose was to destroy sid, why all the trouble?
darth_frared posted:a) that depends on what the destiny is.
darth_frared posted:depending on what you think bringing the force into balance means.
darth_frared posted:b) i'm not sure why i'm so reluctant, but anyway... he can choose whatever he wants in the realm of possibility except whether he wants to kill sid or not. or else, he can choose when to kill sid.
darth_frared posted:c) i'm not sure what 'participating in his destiny' means.
OBIWAN-JR posted:>>>> I try to be rather dispassionate about what it is; try not to personify it in a way that gives it some sort of consciousness. But if the Force has no consciousness, Natas, then what is the Will of the Force.....?
Darth-Natas posted: In the films, the Jedi often refer to it as a sort of spiritual embodiment (with a consciousness), but I tend to regard that as them personifying their goody goody intentions and use of it…sort of an extreme bias that they have been indoctrinated with by their order...to adopt to give them purpose and empowerment...to better enable them to uphold their virtues. A sort of manifest destiny, if you will.
darth_frared posted:what i have a problem with is the will of the force thing which i can sort of explain away and say it'a metaphor. how do energy fields create life though, if they have no determination?
darth_frared posted:dunno if it answers my question... i follow you with intention and human nature, but i'm not sure how you relate that to the force *acting*. if it's an energy field it just is and might not have our petty notions of justice and morality. but then you say it is not even, right? so how can the prophecy have come into the world if not through *someone* divining future events and dreaming up a possible conclusion? and wouldn't this divination mean that the force indeed has some influenece on the mortals?
darth-sinister posted:It's not stacking the deck in my favor. It's the story. The Sith are in the wrong and must be wiped out to preserve the Force and the peace.
darth-sinister posted:Anyone with a significant Midichlorian count can use the Force, but they must use it correctly. The Sith don't and as such they must be stopped, no matter the cost. It's not bias. It's the story.
darth-sinister posted:Dooku never conquered his fears and his greed. Though he was trained from an early age, he never taught himself to let go. This is why he turned. He wanted to be all powerful. He never let go of his fears. He was attached to Qui-gon.
darth-sinister posted:The symbiotic nature of the Jedi and the parasitic nature of the Sith is at the core of Star Wars. One side is the correct side. The other isn't.
natas posted:The answer that I gave to OBIWAN-JR is also the answer to your questions here too I think: the Jedi personify the force as a part of their religious doctrine. Divination doesn’t have to come from any kind of supernatural entity or consciousness…it is merely seeing into the future. Granted, the force enables one to do it, but it is not necessarily the force which deliberately brings it about. If it were a deliberately intended will of something like that, I argue that it would have been a prophecy with considerably much more clarity. It is merely bits and pieces of many possible events in the future…which are easily misinterpreted accordingly, but because those events all lead to what the Jedi desire to happen for their own ends, they make it into a dogmatic, religious sort of prophecy…similar to that of the apocalypse in the bible. That is why they refer to Anakin as the ‘Chosen One.’ That is also why him turning to the dark side was so upsetting to them.
natas posted:The point of this thread is whether or not Anakin had to become Sith to bring about the prophecy. I argue that it could have been done either way…which is why the prophecy came about to begin with—because as I stated, all the possible confusing events of the future, all lead to the same final conclusion, but the different possible paths provided enough ambiguity to keep it from being crystal clear as to what path he would take to do it. Keep in mind too, that this is all just science fiction anyway.
sinister posted:All it could do was create Anakin to stop him, before it was too late. And that's if the Force created Anakin. It might not be able to do anything, but watch and place people on their path to destiny.
get in gear posted:That is all the Force wants, stability - not instability. Harmony - not chaos.
Get_in_Gear posted:Yes - biased. Biased in favour of established narrative fact, rather than intriguing, but ultimately, fruitless conjecture, methinks...
darth_frared posted:but there's uncertainty to this as well. or are you saying there was always uncertainty and the jedi just sort of said this is going to happen and thereby solidified it?
darth_frared posted:doesn't mean i cannot even attempt to understand it, right? so you say there is a prescribed ending to anakin's story (bringing balance preps?) and yet you say nobody really knew this end, they just figured this would be it (and figured how it would be it) and left it at that. but the there is *destiny* and there is a prescribed order of events supposed to happen ion order for something else to happen, so, my question is when do these things start and when do they end? was him becoming a sith part of this or not? and no one could answer it so far. and what is destiny anyway? i'm getting lost.
PMT99 posted:According to Obi-wan, having Anakin become a Sith was NOT part of the prophecy and his last words to Anakin are: You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness. Anakin fulfills the prophecy by killing Darth Sidious, not when he becomes a Sith himself.
haydenlover92 posted:PMT99 posted:According to Obi-wan, having Anakin become a Sith was NOT part of the prophecy
PMT99 posted:According to Obi-wan, having Anakin become a Sith was NOT part of the prophecy
haydenlover92 posted:PMT99 posted:Anakin fulfills the prophecy by killing Darth Sidious, not when he becomes a Sith himself.
PMT99 posted:Anakin fulfills the prophecy by killing Darth Sidious, not when he becomes a Sith himself.
Darth-Natas posted: Lucas created this saga…and he most obviously used our own society and human natures as a model for its creation. Quite frankly, there are just too many obvious correlations to deny it. One of darth-sinister’s infamous Lucas quotes in another thread even goes on and on about how he was trying to draw parallels between the Jedi and Sith…not just in terms of good and evil, but also yin and yang (Eastern philosophy) sort of stuff. You shouldn’t be so closed-minded and quick to judge…you might be more likely to see the full dynamic, instead of the cut and dry 2-D image you choose to see instead.
darth_frared posted: Dezdmona posted:IMHO I don’t think it’s possible to remove choice from Anakin’s destiny, But let’s try this for a “cosmological perspective”: Anakin cannot escape his "ultimate destiny", but his "temporal fate" is malleable depending on his decisions. Anakin did not have his “temporary fate” of becoming a Sith imposed upon him*, he chose it. Palpatine manipulated Anakin’s weaknesses (fear of loss, obsessive love), into tricking him to choose to become a Sith in order to serve his own desires. By participating in his destiny, Anakin shaped his Sith fate. He was not able to change his ultimate destiny however; but that was no trick. The veil of the dark side lifted, and compassion ruled Anakin’s choice. *There is more than one place in the story where Anakin has the chance to fulfill his destiny without falling. a) that depends on what the destiny is. depending on what you think bringing the force into balance means. b) i'm not sure why i'm so reluctant, but anyway... he can choose whatever he wants in the realm of possibility except whether he wants to kill sid or not. or else, he can choose when to kill sid. c) i'm not sure what 'participating in his destiny' means. i'm not very far from denying free will altogether right now. so, why don't you prove how he was going to choose differently given who he is.
Dezdmona posted:IMHO I don’t think it’s possible to remove choice from Anakin’s destiny, But let’s try this for a “cosmological perspective”: Anakin cannot escape his "ultimate destiny", but his "temporal fate" is malleable depending on his decisions. Anakin did not have his “temporary fate” of becoming a Sith imposed upon him*, he chose it. Palpatine manipulated Anakin’s weaknesses (fear of loss, obsessive love), into tricking him to choose to become a Sith in order to serve his own desires. By participating in his destiny, Anakin shaped his Sith fate. He was not able to change his ultimate destiny however; but that was no trick. The veil of the dark side lifted, and compassion ruled Anakin’s choice. *There is more than one place in the story where Anakin has the chance to fulfill his destiny without falling.
darth-sinister posted:He has to choose to follow his destiny. He is aware of his destiny when Qui-gon speaks of him being the Chosen One, right in front of Anakin. Obi-wan and the other Jedi have told him what they know about it. He knows that he has to destroy Sidious when the time comes. But he won't do it, because he needs him. When he initially decides to kill Sidious on Mustafar, he will not be fulfilling his destiny. He will only continue the cycle of evil. Obi-wan takes care of that, which sets the stage for his later redemption. By the time it comes to choosing which path to take, he knows and understands everything now. In deciding to save his son, he chooses to fulfill his destiny. Even if it will cost him his life in the process.
Darth-Natas posted:The “Will" of the force is merely the Jedi’s personification of it as an entity for their own dogmatic agenda.
Darth-Natas posted: I know you aren’t; I'm making sure that you don't. I’m saying you should stop trying. As for your “It’s the story” argument, the films are based on the perspective of the Jedi, but as in real life, there are two sides to every story. That’s why we should be discussing it rather than just accepting the biased perspective of the movie as gospel, like a bunch of religious fanatics. There would be no point in having dicussions in these forums, like this, at all...if it were so cut and dry.
Darth-Natas posted:Your argument IS biased, circular, and flawed (see above). The hell it ain't. The arguement is based on the facts of the film. The Sith are evil ****** ****** and must be killed. The story isn't from their point of view. It's from everyone's point of view, but the ultimate truth is that the Sith way is the wrong way. Anakin was decieved by a lie and manipulated because of his greedy nature. His son reminds him of the nature of the Jedi, which is to show compassion towards his enemy and reminds him who his true enemy is and what he must do to set things right. [quote=Darth-Natas]Thank you for admitting I was correct in my last post regarding the flaw in your own...previously. There is no flaw. In the time since attachments were forbidden and children were trained from birth, only one Jedi fell. I'd say that's a pretty good track record. Dooku was just a weak man. [quote=Darth-Natas]Again, your argument IS biased, circular, and flawed (see above). Blah, blah, blah. [quote=Darth-Natas]BTW, I find it very interesting that you chose a sith nick for this forum, considering that you are apparently so much a Jedi at heart.
Darth-Natas posted:Lucas created this saga…and he most obviously used our own society and human natures as a model for its creation. Quite frankly, there are just too many obvious correlations to deny it. One of darth-sinister’s infamous Lucas quotes in another thread even goes on and on about how he was trying to draw parallels between the Jedi and Sith…not just in terms of good and evil, but also yin and yang (Eastern philosophy) sort of stuff. You shouldn’t be so closed-minded and quick to judge…you might be more likely to see the full dynamic, instead of the cut and dry 2-D image you choose to see instead.
