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Topic:
Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Darth-Natas
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth-sinister posted:
Wel, that's where you're wrong. The Force does have a will. It is, for all intents and purposes, the divine influence of the GFFA. And the Jedi aren't dogmatic. That's Sith propaganda, otherwise known as bantha fodder.
darth-sinister posted:
These discussions exist because people have nothing better to do with themselves than to sit down and talk about useless crap.
darth-sinister posted:
Just cause I'm a Jedi at heart doesn't mean I don't like badass names. Much less that I don't have one of the worst tempers around.
Well, since a healthy debate seems to throw you into such a tirade (aka temper tantrum/meltdown), I suppose I should just drop it and let you go on believing what the status quo around here wishes to accept as the only possible, accepted interpretation of these films. I don’t agree with you, but it seems rather clear now that the deck, is indeed, stacked in your favor…since you are a moderator here, and admin blatantly wishes to prejudice this sort of discussion with bias in my disfavor. My hands are tied…as certainly a double standard surely exists here for true discussion.
rhonderoo posted:
Natas, you have a choice on these forums. To post or not to post, to read or not to read. Do not come in here and start baiting, as that will get a quick show to the door. This is a warning. The next "bs" or "crap" from you and you're gone. Show some respect for your fellow posters.
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Galactic Mega-Prick, Supreme...as in Grande!
Yes, I feel your hate...it makes you stronger lol
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TheCRZA
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 12:14am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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^^^^^^^^ 
A double standard is a harsh mistress...
-----signature-----
"When I give food to the poor,
I am a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food,
I am a communist."
-Hélder Câmara
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Get_in_Gear
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 2:00am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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But we can't let that detract from the debate...
The will of the Force is not a matter of politics, it is not a matter of dogmatic points of view and it is not a matter of some impartial force of nature.
It is about the Force having a will.
A will which we are told is conveyed to the sentient beings of the galaxy by the midichlorians.
How can one claim the Jedi are simply inflicting their dogmatic point of view upon the Force after watching all six movies?
Qui-Gon Jinn, as a model Jedi, learns how to become one with the Force and attains eternal consciousness.
When Yoda communes with the Force, the Force itself chooses QGJ as the vessel through which it answers.
Yoda and Obi are able, through QGJ to become one with the Force too - and it is through being Jedi that they are able to do this.
It is something, as QGJ informs us, "no Sith can achieve".
As was said before - the Sith are a cancer, Anakin is the cure.
The Force is not favouring the Jedi per se.
The Force is not trying to destroy the Sith per se.
The Jedi are, through their practices, making themselves favourable to the Force.
The Sith, through their practices and intentions, are making themselves a threat to the stability of the Force.
You are not judged on who or what you are, only what you do.
The Sith are not being punished for being Sith, they simply need to be removed to restore balance to the Force because they are upsetting the balance.
We don't need to debate the merits of the Jedi POV vs the Sith POV, because the proof is in the pudding - balance IS brought in ROTJ, and it IS brought because the Sith are gone from the galaxy.
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OBIWAN-JR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 3:11am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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>>>> The “Will" of the force is merely the Jedi’s personification of it as an entity for their own dogmatic agenda.
Right, so let me get this straight, Natas.
As far as you are concerned the Force does not have a 'Will'?
Right?
Which means that as far as you are concerned, Anakin cannot be the Chosen One in terms of having been 'fathered' by the Force in Messianic fashion?
Right?
And are you also saying that, with reference to the topic, Anakin HAD to become a Sith?
-JR 
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"Love, is the answer to the darkness." 
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 12:40pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Do not presume to assume that when I say I have a temper, that I am using it in my posts.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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get in gear posted:
And what I don't particularly like, while we're on that slant, is the assumption that anyone who posts a quote cannot have thought about the topic, as much as someone who disagrees with that quote.
you know what happens a lot, though? that quotes stop a debate because they supposedly answer a lifelong mystery of sorts. like the productive and destructive side to love or some such thing. we'll just get a lucas quote to answer it. lucas knows best!
i love assembling argumentations and having them compete against others to see how they've grown in depth, but it's unfortunate if all i get is people pulling quotes which supposedly answer stuff.
i tell you, if things are a mystery and open a debate (like who shot john dillinger? or did mace lose against sid?) then that's because they are presented that way in the films. (whether george intended them this way or not, i don't give a toss)
and if i see that the issues of destiny and free will are presented in the films, i also see that the films by themselves do not give an answer to what's right and wrong. indeed, i daresay, i wouldn't love ROTS quite as much, if it was so cut'n'dry with its answers.
-----signature-----
illegalise stupidity.
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Darth-Natas
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth-sinister posted:
Do not presume to assume that when I say I have a temper, that I am using it in my posts.
I'm not assuming anything...that IS why you wrote it. The fact that you are now reduced to a one line post is not only substantiating evidence of that, but also that you have now been properly censured for using your hate in such an unbecoming manner to your title. If you have anything further to add, I suggest you consult my sig first.
OBIWAN-JR: what part of “I should just drop it,” for the obvious reasons I stated didn’t you understand?
“Dangerous” Dave: minor is all you can get from a mod; even so, still not an easy feat to achieve accordingly. 
-----signature-----
Galactic Mega-Prick, Supreme...as in Grande!
Yes, I feel your hate...it makes you stronger lol
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s0Lstar18
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 8:04am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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I think that both the Sith'Ari and Jedi prophecy works b/c at the time Darth Maul, Asajj Ventress, Darth Maul and to a more public audience who knows nothing of the Sith, General Grievous(b/c most people would associate Lightsabers with the Jedi or Sith)were the only known Sith,no one knew at the time that Palps was indeed Darth Sideous not even the Jedi,so Yes when Maul was destroyed(not By Ani I know)Asajj Ventress,Tyrannus,and Grievous the Sith were "destroyed" in a way,Especially with Tyrannus being the most powerful "known" Sith of the bunch but when Anakin turned to the Darkside and became Darth Vader,yes he was going kill Darth Sideous being 2x as powerful(3x if he didn't lose the other arm.)and lead them to make them stronger,but even with him only being an apprentice to Darth Sideous they still lead together to make the Sith stronger than ever be4,then it works into the Jedi prophecies where he did destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force,so it works both ways if you ask me.
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Hmmm...good blow this is -Yoda  Anakin Skywalker is the Force  "Hence forth you shall be known as...Darth...Vader!!!  Darth Sideous "You Underestimate My Power!!!"  - Darth Vader
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yoshifett
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:24am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Darth-Natas posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Wel, that's where you're wrong. The Force does have a will. It is, for all intents and purposes, the divine influence of the GFFA. And the Jedi aren't dogmatic. That's Sith propaganda, otherwise known as bantha fodder.
darth-sinister posted:
These discussions exist because people have nothing better to do with themselves than to sit down and talk about useless crap.
darth-sinister posted:
Just cause I'm a Jedi at heart doesn't mean I don't like badass names. Much less that I don't have one of the worst tempers around.
Well, since a healthy debate seems to throw you into such a tirade (aka temper tantrum/meltdown), I suppose I should just drop it and let you go on believing what the status quo around here wishes to accept as the only possible, accepted interpretation of these films. I don’t agree with you, but it seems rather clear now that the deck, is indeed, stacked in your favor…since you are a moderator here, and admin blatantly wishes to prejudice this sort of discussion with bias in my disfavor. My hands are tied…as certainly a double standard surely exists here for true discussion.
rhonderoo posted:
Natas, you have a choice on these forums. To post or not to post, to read or not to read. Do not come in here and start baiting, as that will get a quick show to the door. This is a warning. The next "bs" or "crap" from you and you're gone. Show some respect for your fellow posters.
This this TFN poster is my kind of scum.
Fearless and inventive.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:57am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Darth-Natas posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Do not presume to assume that when I say I have a temper, that I am using it in my posts.
I'm not assuming anything...that IS why you wrote it. The fact that you are now reduced to a one line post is not only substantiating evidence of that, but also that you have now been properly censured for using your hate in such an unbecoming manner to your title. If you have anything further to add, I suggest you consult my sig first.
You mentioned my name and made an observation. I gave you the origin of it. Any assumptions you make are your own folly.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 1:50am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Darth-Natas posted:
darth_frared posted:
but there's uncertainty to this as well. or are you saying there was always uncertainty and the jedi just sort of said this is going to happen and thereby solidified it?
I think the prophecy was based on visions of the Sith being destroyed. Period. However, the means by which it was achieved was always unclear. Part of the reason I believe this to be so (not only because in the films it so obviously was), is because Anakin's character is not good or evil...it is neutral. He represents the quintessential human being...who has to choose right from wrong, but can go either way. That is also why I have objected to him being referred to as angelic.
well, i don't subscribe to him being neutral in that sense. i subscribe to him having to transcend both jedi and sith philosophies. but he is badly equipped to do that for some reason. luke is much better mentally and spiritually equipped.
natas posted:
The point of this thread is whether or not Anakin had to become Sith to bring about the prophecy. I argue that it could have been done either way…which is why the prophecy came about to begin with—because as I stated, all the possible confusing events of the future, all lead to the same final conclusion, but the different possible paths provided enough ambiguity to keep it from being crystal clear as to what path he would take to do it. Keep in mind too, that this is all just science fiction anyway.
so you say the objective of the prophecy is to destroy the sith?
darth_frared posted:
doesn't mean i cannot even attempt to understand it, right?
so you say there is a prescribed ending to anakin's story (bringing balance preps?) and yet you say nobody really knew this end, they just figured this would be it (and figured how it would be it) and left it at that. but the there is *destiny* and there is a prescribed order of events supposed to happen ion order for something else to happen, so, my question is when do these things start and when do they end? was him becoming a sith part of this or not? and no one could answer it so far.
and what is destiny anyway?
i'm getting lost.
I can’t tell if your initial question is asking me if I’m suggesting you are daft…or not? I wasn’t; at all. All I meant about the SciFi bit was just that I was trying to keep it on the light side of seriousness…as it isn’t real anyway. To clarify/reiterate, the “Chosen One” was destined to destroy the sith…I believe the prophecy was based on this eventual conclusion being reached by someone. However, it was obviously obscure enough that they didn’t know exactly who this individual was. Furthermore, the Jedi don’t really know whether the chosen one is jedi or sith…they just assume it will be a jedi because he destroys the sith—rather simple assumption really. What makes it complicated and ambiguous, is that only the ultimate end of the sith being destroyed is known…through the prophecy. All the events that take place up to that point are not. Yoda cannot see it clearly at all, but instead sees conflict in young Ani…and so doubts it is him because he is biased in thinking the “Chosen One” will be jedi. Also, the prophecy is not clear on a time line…so there is always doubt as to when it will actually happen. They rely on faith that it is Anakin, and go through trauma when he turns to the dark side. It is supposed to be confusing…it is all about choices, and the inner conflict of doing right from wrong…a very human condition.
now it sounds like you follow the sith destrution theory. is this what you mean?
i mean, i follow you with yoda assuming all these things because he cannot imagine the jedi having lost their track, right? but this is my argument in favour of having the jedi order destroyed as well, as they weren't willing or able to change on their own account in their own time anymore. they had become so arrogant in their philosophy that there was no other way to change them. and i realize what this means, but i also realize that it's a story and therefore incorporates metaphors.
the question for me is if there's no will to the force and nothing certain, then what's the deal anyway? no prophecy needed, all natural selection and just the human mind attaching meaning to it.
and if there is will and determination, then there's still the possibility of the jedi misinterpreting the prophecy (and misreading it into sith destruction at any rate) and failing due to their arrogance.
on both accounts the parties didn't stand much of a chance.
sinister posted:
These discussions exist because people have nothing better to do with themselves than to sit down and talk about useless crap.
btw, does this include you, sinister? or do you simply advise me and people like me to get a life?
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illegalise stupidity.
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Get_in_Gear
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 3:24am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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I'd like to pick up on that point of the prophecy being "based on a vision of the destruction of the Sith".
I'm not sure whether that is true.
Here are the slender facts we know about the Prophecy:
1) The Prophecy must state or allude to the fact that the Chosen One is born of the Force itself - that the midichlorians will create the individual who will bring balance to the Force.
QUI-GON: "A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midichlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians."
MACE WINDU: "You're referring to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy?"
2) That the Chosen One must destroy the Sith is proven to be a fact to the audience in Return of the Jedi, and Lucas confirms this to be the case.
However, up until that point, it is equally clear that the Prophecy itself does not explicitly say that the Chosen One's destiny is to destroy the Sith, that is just the Jedi interpretation of whatever it is the Prophecy says.
We know that because of this scene:
OBI-WAN: "With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?"
MACE: "So the prophecy says."
YODA: "A prophecy... that misread could have been."
Destroying the Sith and bringing balance is just a reading of the prophecy.
The actual text of the Prophecy could be something quite cryptic.
We don't even know if it is a "text".
It could be a cave painting, or some kind of runes which need deceiphering.
It could be a riddle.
It doesn't matter.
Because in the end, it is just a prophecy - a prediction.
And, most importantly, the Jedi's interpretation of that Prophecy is proven to be absolutely spot on.
QGJ was right.
The Jedi were right.
If it was based on or inspired by a vision of the Sith being destroyed, I feel the actual Prophecy itself would have said so explicitly.
It just says a Chosen One will be born of the Force itself and will bring balance to the Force, from what we can deduce from the films themselves.
Just because the Prophet did not see or choose to mention the Destruction of the Sith - it was still integral to his Prophecy, because that is what casued it to be true - that was the balance bringing act.
He saw balance, and the one who would bring it.
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OBIWAN-JR
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 3:41am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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>>>> OBIWAN-JR: what part of “I should just drop it,” for the obvious reasons I stated didn’t you understand?
I'm sorry, Natas.
But I thought that when you said: “I should just drop it”, you were referring to your discussion with Sinister, seeing as that is who you were responding to at the time.
I wasn't aware that it was a full ranging comment that applied to all.
All I was doing was replying to your response to ME, and trying to get some clarification from you, regarding your stance in this thread.
If the discussion is over, then fine.
Say so.
But please don't do it in such a condescending way, when my only intention is to have an intelligent discussion with you.
Thanks.
-JR
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"Love, is the answer to the darkness."
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 12:25pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Get_in_Gear posted:
I'd like to pick up on that point of the prophecy being "based on a vision of the destruction of the Sith".
I'm not sure whether that is true.
Here are the slender facts we know about the Prophecy:
1) The Prophecy must state or allude to the fact that the Chosen One is born of the Force itself - that the midichlorians will create the individual who will bring balance to the Force.
QUI-GON: "A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midichlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians."
MACE WINDU: "You're referring to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy?"
i'm not sure how nitpicky i can get with you....
and i can be awfully nitpicky...
ok, let's try this: there is this prophecy about bringing balance to the force. assuming it says it will be a somebody doing the job doesn't necessarily say it will be someone born from the force with a high midi count.
granted, anakin's circumstances and midi-count is exceptional and it's a reason QGJ considers him for the whole thing. but it's not direct proof it had to be this kid. under those circumstances. it *could* be the element of surprise.
get in gear posted:
2) That the Chosen One must destroy the Sith is proven to be a fact to the audience in Return of the Jedi, and Lucas confirms this to be the case.
However, up until that point, it is equally clear that the Prophecy itself does not explicitly say that the Chosen One's destiny is to destroy the Sith, that is just the Jedi interpretation of whatever it is the Prophecy says.
We know that because of this scene:
OBI-WAN: "With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?"
MACE: "So the prophecy says."
YODA: "A prophecy... that misread could have been."
Destroying the Sith and bringing balance is just a reading of the prophecy.
i think by now you know my take on lucas quotes, right?
not sure how it is a proven fact that the balancing the force thing is *solely* about the destruction of the sith. that's my point. it's not *solely* the sith. there are other things incorporated in it. could we talk about that preps?
get in gear posted:
The actual text of the Prophecy could be something quite cryptic.
We don't even know if it is a "text".
It could be a cave painting, or some kind of runes which need deceiphering.
It could be a riddle.
It doesn't matter.
Because in the end, it is just a prophecy - a prediction.
And, most importantly, the Jedi's interpretation of that Prophecy is proven to be absolutely spot on.
QGJ was right.
The Jedi were right.
i admire your confidence. can i have a share?
what makes you so sure about it?
get in gear posted:
If it was based on or inspired by a vision of the Sith being destroyed, I feel the actual Prophecy itself would have said so explicitly.
It just says a Chosen One will be born of the Force itself and will bring balance to the Force, from what we can deduce from the films themselves.
Just because the Prophet did not see or choose to mention the Destruction of the Sith - it was still integral to his Prophecy, because that is what casued it to be true - that was the balance bringing act.
He saw balance, and the one who would bring it.
i think you were confusing jedi with sith in this one or are you? coz otherwise it makes no sense.
or you are really discussing the sith destruction which i haven't really doubted. or maybe i have. i'm lost.
anyway, just to reiterate (love that word!):
destruction of sith: check
destruction of jedi order: check
hence, maybe destruction of the jedi order was part of it.
no more, no less.
can we now talk about that?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 12:31pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth_frared posted:
sinister posted:
These discussions exist because people have nothing better to do with themselves than to sit down and talk about useless crap.
btw, does this include you, sinister? or do you simply advise me and people like me to get a life?
This includes everyone. Not just you and Natas. It's not advice. It's simple fact of all Star Wars fans, nay any fan who posts on a fan message board. People like us are judge as having no life.
The destruction of the Jedi is the result of one man making bad choices. It wasn't forseen and was not what the Force wanted. Sidious didn't need Anakin. He wanted him. The Jedi were almost destroyed when he issued Order 66. If Anakin hadn't been found, the Jedi would've still been killed by Palpatine's machinations. All Vader did was help the Empire.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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