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Topic:
Anakin had to become a Sith...
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YYZ-2112
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Dezdmona posted:
YYZ-2112 posted:
...since both Jedi and Sith are merely labels of an institution.
Hate to muddy the already convoluted waters here, but must take issue with this comment...
Jedi and Sith are NOT merely labels of their respective Order...
Each Order is defined by the philosophy of their beliefs about the ways and use of the Force.
I did explain that Anakin had to do the right thing and abandon evil. It is possible to do that without either order ever having existed. The orders are indeed defined by their philosophies. What's important is the philosophy came first. This is basically what I said and it reads this way when it isn't broken up and separated into fragments of a thought out of context to the whole idea. The idea reads as follows:
YYZ-2112 posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Anakin didn't have to be a Jedi or a Sith, is what's being said by TrueJedi. That is what was misread.
I can agree with this since both Jedi and Sith are merely labels of an institution. Anakin did however need to do what was right and good according to the nature of the good side of the force. His time as a Sith and all that he 'accomplished' in those years was wasted energy. None of it contributed to the will of the force or the fulfillment of the prophecy.
I just wanted to clarify this. 
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 11:34pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth_frared posted:
not sure where those shamans live and work but since they are never mentioned anywhere i suppose we might safely ignore them and focus on sith and jedi. so, how was he supposed to lrearn about force and such without being either?
The Shaman of the Whills was a group of Force users that discovered, among other things, how to retain their identity upon death. Qui-gon learned from one of them and this is what he teaches to Yoda and Obi-wan, who help Anakin. They are canon, since Lucas wrote them and had intended them to be in the film. Their is little known about them, but they appear to be much like the Jedi, since only those who are compassionate and without attachments can retain their identities.
All Anakin had to do was taught about the Force. Taught to use his power for the benefit of others. Taught to not be selfish. Taught to let go of all sense of self and attachment. The Jedi and the Whills are similar, but also different. One was the defenders of peace and justice. The other was appearently dedicated to the study of the Force only.
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came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 1:38am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth-sinister posted:
Anakin could be trained in the ways of the Force, but not be a Jedi Knight. He could then fight him using the Force and a Lightsaber. Like I said, he could've been a Shaman of the Whills and go after Sidious.
But there is noone in the galaxy who knows the ways of the Force better than the Jedi do and only they can provide Anakin the knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber. Also, because Lucas didn't bother to mention the Shamen of the Whills in any of the prequal films, then they do not exist to me which leaves us with only one access on how to use the Force: The Jedi.
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 1:47am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister?
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THEFORCEROCKS
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 5:37am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister
Well maybe just think about other people for a change Frared? That could be a start.
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"Chancellor Palpatine Sith Lords are our specialty." Kenobi
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JMN77
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 7:46am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth-sinister posted:
No, what it means is that Anakin didn't have to be a part of either order to fulfill his destiny. He just had to be trained in the ways of the Force and face the Sith.
Gotta go with Sinister on this one.
It's really that simple.
Yes Dez the titles of the individual organizations are far more than just that,
but all that matters is that Anakin A) Knew the ways of the Force and
B) Destroyed the Sith.... weather he was a Jedi or not.
Has it been overlooked that Anakin was a Sith when he destroyed Sidious??
(I may not have read back far enough.)
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 8:22am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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THEFORCEROCKS posted:
how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister
Well maybe just think about other people for a change Frared? That could be a start.
how about through actions instead of thumb-twiddling?
jmn posted:
Has it been overlooked that Anakin was a Sith when he destroyed Sidious??
it hasn't. i don't think.  and is he really a sith? is he really ever properly a sith?
it has been overlooked that there may be a more cosmological plan to the balancing which might involve the destruction of the jedi order and it has been overlooked that no one knows what balancing the force actually means. it has been overlooked that all we have is the jedi's interpretation of the prophecy. and it has been overlooked that there might not be a will of the force at all because that is a metaphor.
i think i have those bases covered now. 
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illegalise stupidity.
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 8:34am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Lucas has said this series is about choices, we have a very important choice made in ROTS where Anakin decides to let Sidious live twice. Then again in ROTJ where he decides to take him out.
Now he could haver saved himself 20 years in the suit, he could have been the greatest Jedi Master ever, had lots of kids with his wife and lived a much better life. Even if they expelled him from the order doesn't mean he loses all his powers, just his status.
Would the Jedi council expell the chosen one anyway?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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PMT99 posted:
But there is noone in the galaxy who knows the ways of the Force better than the Jedi do and only they can provide Anakin the knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber. Also, because Lucas didn't bother to mention the Shamen of the Whills in any of the prequal films, then they do not exist to me which leaves us with only one access on how to use the Force: The Jedi.
But Anakin didn't have to be a member of the Jedi Order to learn the ways of the Force. Had Qui-gon not assumed correctly that Maul was a Sith, he would've been content to say that he was just trained in the ways of the Force, but was not a Jedi. Remember that the Jedi first came about without a Jedi Master to teach that first person. There was no such thing as a Jedi, over twenty five thousand years ago.
THEFORCEROCKS posted:
darth_frared posted:
how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister
Well maybe just think about other people for a change Frared? That could be a start.
Bingo. Anakin never once thinks or considers what his wife wants. He never asks her what she wants him to do. It's always what he wants. That is by definition being selfish.
darth_frared posted:
how about through actions instead of thumb-twiddling?
Obi-wan has been a role model for Anakin on how to be selfless. Anakin just didn't pay attention and take it to heart.
darth_frared posted:
it hasn't. i don't think. and is he really a sith?
Sith don't act compassionately.
darth_frared posted:
is he really ever properly a sith?
All the way up until he starts to become conflicted over his actions.
darth_frared posted:
it has been overlooked that there may be a more cosmological plan to the balancing which might involve the destruction of the jedi order and it has been overlooked that no one knows what balancing the force actually means. it has been overlooked that all we have is the jedi's interpretation of the prophecy. and it has been overlooked that there might not be a will of the force at all because that is a metaphor.
i think i have those bases covered now.
Well, we do know what it is. It's told to us in the films and by George Lucas himself.
Blue_Jedi33 posted:
Now he could haver saved himself 20 years in the suit, he could have been the greatest Jedi Master ever, had lots of kids with his wife and lived a much better life. Even if they expelled him from the order doesn't mean he loses all his powers, just his status.
Would the Jedi council expell the chosen one anyway?
Well, I think they would even if he did the right thing and took out Palpatine. That's setting a poor example that Anakin broke the rules and then doesn't get punished for it. This is true in real life.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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chopman
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 8:16pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Anakin didn't have to become a sith. The prophecy was that the chosen one would bring balance to the force right? It doesn't say anything about him or her killing anyone. The jedi's misreading the prophecy was that they assumed that the one would kill the emporer or something like that. But all that it meant was that the existence of a jedi that was extremely endowed with the good side of the force would balance out Sidious who was extremely into the dark side. Remember, Sidious birth wasn't natural, he was created. So the force willed Anakin to be created to balance things out. All he had to do to fulfill the prophecy was simply exist, all the other stuff about killing the emporer wasn't the defenite destiny of the universe, it's just how things played out.
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Dezdmona
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 9:24pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth_frared posted:
how does one learn not to be selfish, sinister?
Perhaps fared, if you consider how your actions affect others ~
you might make different choices. 
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Book: It's not about… making sense.
It's about believing in something.
And letting that belief be real enough to change your life.
It's about faith.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 11:52pm
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Reading the novel "Dark Lord", Luceno aptly points out that Vader would've made Padme understand his reasonings for doing what he has done. Luceno put the word made in italics. As in force her to understand. In the same scene, Vader thinks that he was doing was best for everyone. He didn't care what they thought. He only cared about what he wanted to do. He's mad at Obi-wan for adhering to the Jedi teachings and he's mad at Padme for clinging to the way of the Old Republic.
Greedy through and through.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/16/06 4:32am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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darth-sinister posted:
But Anakin didn't have to be a member of the Jedi Order to learn the ways of the Force. Had Qui-gon not assumed correctly that Maul was a Sith, he would've been content to say that he was just trained in the ways of the Force, but was not a Jedi. Remember that the Jedi first came about without a Jedi Master to teach that first person. There was no such thing as a Jedi, over twenty five thousand years ago.
But now, there is such as a thing as the Jedi and again, they are the only ones with knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber because there is nobody else that does. Plus, Qui-Gon has to label Maul as a Sith because 1) There is nobody who would battle Qui-Gon in such raw-aggressive fashion like the Sith do and 2) He would want Anakin to know who the Jedi are up against so that he would not be tempted into becoming a Sith himself.
darth-sinister posted:
Bingo. Anakin never once thinks or considers what his wife wants. He never asks her what she wants him to do. It's always what he wants. That is by definition being selfish.
If you call wanting your wife to survive childbirth as "selfish", then I think its unfair to criticize Anakin for that because Padme knows that the last time Anakin had dreams of a loved one dying, it came true and it was foolish of her to tell Anakin that the new dreams of her dying will not be real when she knows that Anakin will not make that same assumption again after what happened to his mom.
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/16/06 10:58am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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Dezdmona posted:
darth_frared posted:
how does one learn not to be selfish?
Perhaps fared, if you consider how your actions affect others ~
you might make different choices.
yes, i suppose. how about i have to make mistakes still, though?
is it empathy you're after? being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes?
i have the feeling that selflessness as a mindset can only be achieved by voluntarily doing it. for me it's useless to *demand* it because once it's forced it's empty.
you have to arrive at wanting to do it by yourself. through being able to also receive. i don't think anybody can tell me that charity is not a reward in itself.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/16/06 11:38am
Subject:
RE: Anakin had to become a Sith...
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PMT99 posted:
But now, there is such as a thing as the Jedi and again, they are the only ones with knowledge on how to use the Force and the lightsaber because there is nobody else that does. Plus, Qui-Gon has to label Maul as a Sith because 1) There is nobody who would battle Qui-Gon in such raw-aggressive fashion like the Sith do and 2) He would want Anakin to know who the Jedi are up against so that he would not be tempted into becoming a Sith himself.
1. Qui-gon was making a guess. The Jedi Council were labeling him as a mysterious warrior or the Queen's attacker. 2. It wasn't a lesson for Anakin. He wasn't even there when in the Council chambers.
Obi-wan could've trained him to use the Force, but Anakin could say "I will learn the Force, but I will not be a part of your Jedi Order." Jedi can leave the Order. And if they leave, they can still use the Force to save lives, just not as a Jedi Knight. Beforing finding out he was evil, the Council assumed that Dooku was using his Jedi training as a political idealist. They cannot concieve that he is evil.
PMT99 posted:
If you call wanting your wife to survive childbirth as "selfish", then I think its unfair to criticize Anakin for that because Padme knows that the last time Anakin had dreams of a loved one dying, it came true and it was foolish of her to tell Anakin that the new dreams of her dying will not be real when she knows that Anakin will not make that same assumption again after what happened to his mom.
Anakin's being selfish because he is wanting to cheat death. Sometimes you cannot cheat death. Medicial science, for all it's good, cannot conquer death. Prolong it, but not indefinately. And Anakin's motivations are selfish because he's thinking about how he'll be affected. Not how the other one feels. She wasn't foolish. She was trying to get her husband to unclench and to let her help him. But he was being selfish, because he didn't want to let her in. Being married is about working together. Not alone.
Besides, it's not childbirth that kills her. It is Anakin's betrayal that does it. He's so obsessed with this, that he's not listening to reasoning or to his Jedi training. His Jedi training tells him that the future is always in motion. And Yoda reminds him to be careful. He doesn't listen and so it's his own fault for not minding what he has learned, because it would've saved him a hellva lot of greif.
darth_frared posted:
yes, i suppose. how about i have to make mistakes still, though?
You can make mistakes, but you can also avoid making them in the first place. We're all faced with that choice. If we stop and think, we can avoid the mistakes and not pay any penalities later.
darth_frared posted:
is it empathy you're after? being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes?
Empathy, not so much. I don't think. But being able to look at things from another point of view is important. Anakin needed to see things from his wife's point of view and his Master's. He can't be just thinking of himself all the time.
darth_frared posted:
i have the feeling that selflessness as a mindset can only be achieved by voluntarily doing it. for me it's useless to *demand* it because once it's forced it's empty.
you have to arrive at wanting to do it by yourself. through being able to also receive. i don't think anybody can tell me that charity is not a reward in itself.
It's not forcing Anakin to do it. It's a part of his training. Jedi put themselves on the live for others all the time. Same as other fictional heroes. Same as real life heroes. You have to go out and do things that could threaten your life and not worry about personal distractions. You can't always be thinking that you have to do this, when you're in the middle of doing something important. You can't let personal feelings interfere with your work. You can't let your emotions control you.
Charity as a reward in and of itself is or should be all that matters. Knowing that you done well for others is what counts. Getting honored for charity shouldn't be important. There shouldn't be awards and dinners for a person who has done something that is selfless. Nor should you be doing charity because it's a tax write off or good for your public image. There are people out there in the world who make good money, but instead of living the high life, they live almost well below their means. They care not for the large sum or the tax breaks. They care about giving back and don't want reward for it.
What a Jedi does is not a charity, so much as it's putting their abilities in the service of others. For the benefit of others. And to truly be a Jedi, one must be selfless and unattached. Especially if they wish to become one with the Force.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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