darth_frared posted:Dezdmona posted:darth_frared posted:how does one learn not to be selfish? Perhaps fared, if you consider how your actions affect others ~ you might make different choices. yes, i suppose. how about i have to make mistakes still, though? is it empathy you're after? being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes? i have the feeling that selflessness as a mindset can only be achieved by voluntarily doing it. for me it's useless to *demand* it because once it's forced it's empty. you have to arrive at wanting to do it by yourself. through being able to also receive. i don't think anybody can tell me that charity is not a reward in itself.
Dezdmona posted:darth_frared posted:how does one learn not to be selfish? Perhaps fared, if you consider how your actions affect others ~ you might make different choices.
darth_frared posted:how does one learn not to be selfish?
sinister posted:You can make mistakes, but you can also avoid making them in the first place. We're all faced with that choice. If we stop and think, we can avoid the mistakes and not pay any penalities later.
sinister posted: Empathy, not so much. I don't think. But being able to look at things from another point of view is important. Anakin needed to see things from his wife's point of view and his Master's. He can't be just thinking of himself all the time.
sinister posted:It's not forcing Anakin to do it. It's a part of his training. Jedi put themselves on the live for others all the time. Same as other fictional heroes. Same as real life heroes. You have to go out and do things that could threaten your life and not worry about personal distractions. You can't always be thinking that you have to do this, when you're in the middle of doing something important. You can't let personal feelings interfere with your work. You can't let your emotions control you. Charity as a reward in and of itself is or should be all that matters. Knowing that you done well for others is what counts. Getting honored for charity shouldn't be important. There shouldn't be awards and dinners for a person who has done something that is selfless. Nor should you be doing charity because it's a tax write off or good for your public image. There are people out there in the world who make good money, but instead of living the high life, they live almost well below their means. They care not for the large sum or the tax breaks. They care about giving back and don't want reward for it. What a Jedi does is not a charity, so much as it's putting their abilities in the service of others. For the benefit of others. And to truly be a Jedi, one must be selfless and unattached. Especially if they wish to become one with the Force.
Dezdmona posted:Yes, you still have to make mistakes, and learn from them. The next time you are confronted with a similar situation you will recall your past experience and (hopefully) not repeat your previous mistake.
dez posted:Empathy - Yes. That idea blends well with "voluntarily doing it". If you can empathize with someone, you are likely to voluntarily reach out to them. To empathize with someone means that you understand their feelings and or situation. You honestly don't reach out for any "reward" you might receive in return. Though there is usually some small token, perhaps a smile or a thank you, but that is reward enough. You are absolutely correct in that it cannot be forced. If it doesn't come from the heart, it is an empty gesture. (not selflessness)
darth_frared posted:mistakes are part of it. and in order to progress, you must do things differently. it's the simple truth. true, sometimes things can be avoided, but it's arrogance to think that the steos aren't necessary anymore, that the journey isn't part of it.
darth_frared posted:well, sure he should have been able t step out of his pov. he wasn't. i don't know what the word for it is anyway.
darth_frared posted:if the training says, we aren't allowed possessions, then that's forcing it, wouldn't you say?
darth_frared posted:if charity is the reward, how is the deed selfless?
darth_frared posted:and if your rules are like that, how are you not arrogantly definfing it as the only possible way to live?
darth_frared posted:you cannot love everyone if you are loved back? what kind of sick philosophy is that?
darth_frared posted:dez posted:Empathy - Yes. That idea blends well with "voluntarily doing it". If you can empathize with someone, you are likely to voluntarily reach out to them. To empathize with someone means that you understand their feelings and or situation. You honestly don't reach out for any "reward" you might receive in return. Though there is usually some small token, perhaps a smile or a thank you, but that is reward enough. You are absolutely correct in that it cannot be forced. If it doesn't come from the heart, it is an empty gesture. (not selflessness) what puzzles me (and it has done so throughout my stay here at tfn i think) is how it can be taught without interfering with the individual self-realization. you know, we don't always arrive at the point of knowing what selflessness means at the same time.
DragonBalls posted:Yoda new that the prophesy had not been miss read but he could not tell people the truth because that would stop Anakin becominig a sith.Yoda had to hide the truth from every one.
darth-sinister posted: 1. Qui-gon was making a guess. The Jedi Council were labeling him as a mysterious warrior or the Queen's attacker. 2. It wasn't a lesson for Anakin. He wasn't even there when in the Council chambers.
darth-sinister posted:Obi-wan could've trained him to use the Force, but Anakin could say "I will learn the Force, but I will not be a part of your Jedi Order." Jedi can leave the Order. And if they leave, they can still use the Force to save lives, just not as a Jedi Knight. Beforing finding out he was evil, the Council assumed that Dooku was using his Jedi training as a political idealist. They cannot concieve that he is evil.
darth-sinister posted:Anakin's being selfish because he is wanting to cheat death. Sometimes you cannot cheat death. Medicial science, for all it's good, cannot conquer death. Prolong it, but not indefinately. And Anakin's motivations are selfish because he's thinking about how he'll be affected. Not how the other one feels. She wasn't foolish. She was trying to get her husband to unclench and to let her help him. But he was being selfish, because he didn't want to let her in. Being married is about working together. Not alone. Besides, it's not childbirth that kills her. It is Anakin's betrayal that does it. He's so obsessed with this, that he's not listening to reasoning or to his Jedi training. His Jedi training tells him that the future is always in motion. And Yoda reminds him to be careful. He doesn't listen and so it's his own fault for not minding what he has learned, because it would've saved him a hellva lot of greif.
PMT99 posted:How can Anakin listen to reason or his Jedi training after what happened to his mom? Padme doesn't know what it's like to have visions of loved ones dying and then have it become real so there's no way she could help Anakin.
darth-sinister posted:Obi-wan and Yoda both lose faith in the prophecy and Anakin. That's why they do not believe he can come back and why they never speak of it again. They did not know that Anakin had to become a Sith. In fact, he doesn't have to be evil. He made that choice, because he was selfish. He chose to run from his destiny, instead of cutting Palpatine's head off. He chose the quick and easy path to power. The prophecy may have been misread, but Anakin's still the Chosen One. He still brings balance by killing the Sith. The Jedi were causalties of Anakin's greed and Palpatine's machinations.
PMT99 posted:1. Qui-Gon was proven correct even though it costed him his life. 2. It doesn't matter if Anakin was at the Council Chambers or not because the Jedi would eventually have to tell him who the Sith are.
PMT99 posted:Because their arrogance blinded them to the possibility that a Jedi can turn evil and plus, Obi-wan told Anakin, "You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken" which means that it's not possible for any Jedi to leave since they were raised in the temple and its the only home Anakin has.
YYX-2112 posted:I don't agree with this. It's possible that they may have given up on Anakin for a time; including the conclusion of Episode three. But by the time Obi Wan was facing Vader in Episode Four, somthing changed in Obi Wan, something he had to convince Yoda to see in the Empire Strikes Back. Perhaps this change occured when Luke brought the message from Leia to him. In any event, if Obi Wan didn't feel Anakin could be saved he wouldn't have spared him on the Death Star. He would have died trying to fullfill his Jedi Mandate to kill Vader ; if that's what it had been. More importantly the Jedi Masters would not have sent Luke to face Vader and Sidious all by himself unless Luke was better equiped to deal with the conflict. He obviously didn't have the experience in force knowledge or swordplay to better deal with it than Yoda. The one area Luke was superior was his family ties to Anakin. But this would only matter to the Jedi if it was their intention to save Anakin, not destroy Vader. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that Yoda and Obi Wan atleast considered Padme's final words and at the very least were left with an undecided opineon on the matter.
sinister posted:Obi-wan makes it clear that Darth Vader cannot come back. Luke only believes because he is his son and because he cannot believe that no one cannot come back.
sinister posted:Obi-wan did try to kill Vader aboard the Death Star, but he couldn't. And when he saw Anakin's children, he sacrificed himself to get them out of there. Luke wasn't going aboard the Falcon and he had to do something, least Luke stay and be captured or killed.
sinister posted:Yoda and Obi-wan were waiting until the time was right, so that they could train the twins to destroy the Sith. What they didn't realize is that Luke's compassion for his father would turn Vader back, allowing him to fulfill his destiny.
DT421 posted:Please show us where Luke and Obi discuss Anakin coming back. The idea didn’t occur to Luke, until Luke was on Endor. What Obi tells Luke, is who his father IS in the moment, which is twisted and evil. Luke must confront this – not the ounce of good that Luke felt.
DT421 posted:No. Obi did not try to kill Vader. Obi new that Luke’s destiny was tied to his father’s and wasn’t about to try and whack Vader.
DT421Then what was it that Luke had, according to Yoda, that he required no more training, sin? Luke had compassion and compassion is what “conquers” the Sith.[/quote posted: The dead cannot train the living like that. Only to retain their identity. That's why Lucas created Yoda in the first place. He wanted the living, not the dead. There was no more training, because they had run out of time. Luke had what they taught him. [quote=DT421]Simply killing the Sith, isn’t going to bring Balance back to the Force. It’s about conquering the Dark Side back into equal harmony with the Good Side. That’s why the Jedi were purged in the PT, because the Dark Side was within the Jedi also and they couldn’t see it. The Jedi had the same fear and inability to let go, just as Anakin had and it’s perfectly illustrated here: MACE WINDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive. ANAKIN: Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You will need my help if you are going to arrest him. MACE WINDU: For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment. Mace can point out Anakin’s fears, yet can’t even see the same thing within himself. This is the Jedi Order, personified. Do you think Anakin killing Palps, in the reveal scene, would have brought Balance? You think Anakin wouldn’t still have allowed fear to dictate his actions in trying to save Padme, even after killing Palps? At least Yoda had left the door open to other possible interpretations of the Prophecy: OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force? MACE: So the prophecy says. YODA: A prophecy . . . that misread could have been. It isn’t about simply killing Sith. It’s about conquering the Dark Side, starting with conquering the Dark Side within the Jedi Order. Yoda and Obi, under the tutelage of Qui-Gon, will have 20 years to figure this out.
