Dezdmona posted:Good point. I'm not sure the two can be separated. It is part of the growth toward an individuals self-realization. And you are right again, we do not all arrive at the point of knowing what selflessness is at the same time -- some never arrive there. It probably goes back to the old saying - "Charity begins at home". Hopefully a child is taught early and often to think about the feelings of others and this lesson is reinforced by his/her parents and mentors as s/he matures. If this happens, sleflessness will occur naturally for that person.
darth-sinister posted:darth_frared posted:mistakes are part of it. and in order to progress, you must do things differently. it's the simple truth. true, sometimes things can be avoided, but it's arrogance to think that the steos aren't necessary anymore, that the journey isn't part of it. Steos? My point is that one who thinks clearly and logically, they can determine on their own if they are going to make a mistake or not. Case in point, Anakin and Padme knew it was not a good idea to get married. Instead of avoiding it, they went and did it anyway. They paid a price for making a mistake.
darth_frared posted:mistakes are part of it. and in order to progress, you must do things differently. it's the simple truth. true, sometimes things can be avoided, but it's arrogance to think that the steos aren't necessary anymore, that the journey isn't part of it.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:well, sure he should have been able t step out of his pov. he wasn't. i don't know what the word for it is anyway. Humility, perhaps. He needs to see that the world doesn't revolve around him.
darth_frared posted:well, sure he should have been able t step out of his pov. he wasn't. i don't know what the word for it is anyway.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:if the training says, we aren't allowed possessions, then that's forcing it, wouldn't you say?No, it's coming to an understanding of what you need to be and need to do. It doesn't apply so much to clothing, weapons and other creature comforts. It applies to people.
darth_frared posted:if the training says, we aren't allowed possessions, then that's forcing it, wouldn't you say?
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:if charity is the reward, how is the deed selfless? The deed is selfless because you are thinking of others and knowing that you've made a difference. In being selfless, you're putting your needs second to others.
darth_frared posted:if charity is the reward, how is the deed selfless?
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:and if your rules are like that, how are you not arrogantly definfing it as the only possible way to live? For the Jedi and non-Jedi, it is the only way to live. Han goes from greedy and selfish to being compassionate and selfless. A Jedi must make that same transition.
darth_frared posted:and if your rules are like that, how are you not arrogantly definfing it as the only possible way to live?
sinister posted:Obi-wan dismisses Luke's notions that Anakin could come back. He knows that it cannot be done, because he could not do it. Nor could Padme.
sinister posted:He knew that Luke's destiny was to not die now. Obi-wan knew that he had to go alone, but that he wouldn't face Vader until he did. And Obi-wan fought against him.
sinister posted:The dead cannot train the living like that. Only to retain their identity. That's why Lucas created Yoda in the first place. He wanted the living, not the dead. There was no more training, because they had run out of time. Luke had what they taught him.
sinister posted:Lucas says balance is killing the Sith. Nothing more. Anything else is fans putting something into it that's not there.
darth_frared posted:logic isn't everything. they paid a price and probably would still do it again. that's human nature for you.
darth_frared posted:look, maybe you haven't seen it that way before. but the world does revolve around him: he is the chosen one and it's only through him that things will be set either right or wrong. so technically he has every right to demand people to treat him acccording to this status. but he doesn't even do that. he just wants a family. pretty humble, wouldn't you say?
darth_frared posted:if someone tells you what you need and what you don't need that's patronizing and it's forcing it. do you see the point? The point is that Anakin has to let go of these things. It's not just important to being a Jedi, but it's important to being a person. He has to let go of his attachment to Padme, otherwise he will lose her. And that's exaclty what happens. If you love someone, set them free. [quote=darth_frared]but if you have a reward as in feeling good about yourself, it cannot be absolute anymore, can it? you know what absolutes are, right? what the sith deal in all the time.
darth_frared posted:yes, i'm talking about the *how* of that transition. how do you go from being human and wanting people's love and affection and material possessions to selflessness which we have just deduced isn't an absolute? how do you get there? by force? well, if you do that, you will make something like loving a duty and that doesn't work in my book.
DT421 posted:So far, I see no mention of the Sith being the only culprits of the imbalance to the Force. The Jedi are contributing their fair share of it, to the point of clouding their own vision. The Sith aren’t the ones clouding the vision of the Jedi. Lucas doesn’t say “As the Sith begin to take over…” He’s says “evil”. And evil had crept into the ranks of the Jedi, long ago. They “feared” to lose the Order, an already lost Republic and democracy, instead of remaining only servants of the Living Force. This fear led to their inevitible "suffering" in ROTS. Greed is “what a Sith is”. Luke’s compassion is what conquered that – conquered the Sith. Anakin killing Palps, during the reveal, would not have brought Balance. It wouldn’t have magically fixed the Jedi, or stopped Anakin’s fear and greed to possess things. It isn't like simply tossing a ring into the fires of Mt Doom, where all is magically okay again. You conquer what makes a Sith, a Sith – not simply kill the Sith.
Dezdmona posted:Yes, it is important to allow emotions and not “stuff” them.
Dezdmona posted:I don’t know that Anakin HAD to be quiet about his feelings. There is so much interaction during his maturation that isn’t shown. Anakin had already learned to keep secrets before the Jedi even found him on Tatooine. Critical social learning takes place during the first five years of life. While Anakin was learning about compassion from Shmi, he was also learning about greed and abuse (and stuffing emotions) from Watto.
sinister posted:Evil grows because the Dark Side begins to grow and as such, the ones who are causing this are the Sith. The Jedi just become affected by what happens to the Republic, due to their symbiotic bond which traces to Palpatine's machinations.
darth-sinister posted:Dezdmona posted:I don’t know that Anakin HAD to be quiet about his feelings. There is so much interaction during his maturation that isn’t shown. Anakin had already learned to keep secrets before the Jedi even found him on Tatooine. Critical social learning takes place during the first five years of life. While Anakin was learning about compassion from Shmi, he was also learning about greed and abuse (and stuffing emotions) from Watto.There's no proof that Watto was abusive. Also, Anakin knows nothing of greed as Qui-gon observes. It's only when he's made into a hero through the Boonta Eve and the Battle of Naboo, that he starts to learn about greed. No one tells Anakin to be quiet about his feelings. What they tell him is to learn to control his fears and then to let go of them. Just as Luke tells his father to let go of his hate, which he ultimately does. And Anakin is more or less forced to give up his hate, because he is forced to choose, just as he was forced to choose once before.
Dezdmona posted:We can certainly debate whether Watto abused Anakin. I think the story supports it - certainly emotional abuse, which is more damaging than physical abuse.
... posted:I agree that Anakin didn't have to stuff his feelings - he chose to. Perhaps I didn't state that clearly. He does have to learn to control his fear - or it will control him. Just to clarify: ultimately he isn't "more or less" forced to give up his hate: He must choose to either give up his hate or hold on to it.
mandragora posted:People who have been abused as children have rather limited possibilities for "choosing" their emotional life. Simply telling them that they must give up their hate or control their fear won't work - if it would, there wouldn't be a need for a discipline called "psychotherapy."
Dezdmona posted:Your preaching to the choir here. As a psychotherapist, I'm acutely aware of that. Not all abused children develop disorders, it depends on the degree of abuse and positive mentors in their lives.
... posted:In fact, most victims of abuse lead relatively normal lives; it's called "resilience" (i.e., the ability to transcend adversity).
... posted:The concept we had been discussing was "free will" or whether Anakin had been FORCED to feel the way he did. My position is that he was not forced.
Dezdmona posted:Regarding greed, Anakin had been forced to race in the podraces by Watto (so Watto could bet money on him). Watto gained possession of Anakin through a podrace bet (this is one of Anakin's first disclosures). Anakin is an observant kid. He is aware he has been used as a tool for gambling. Gambling is all about greed.
Dezdmona posted:There were always two sides to Anakin, but he had an inate desire to model his mother's example.
Dezdmona posted:I agree that Anakin didn't have to stuff his feelings - he chose to. Perhaps I didn't state that clearly. He does have to learn to control his fear - or it will control him. Just to clarify: ultimately he isn't "more or less" forced to give up his hate: He must choose to either give up his hate or hold on to it.
Dezdmona posted:The ROTS novel explicitly states that Anakin was badly beaten by Watto.
Dezdmona posted:In addition, he had a chip implanted that he knew would explode if he tried to escape. That should be enough to qualify as childhood trauma by any standards. Plus, what else happened when he was the property of Gardulla the Hutt is anybodies guess. The Novel also states that he took the abuse without a word of complaint (or something to that effect). This means he was indeed suppressing emotions/emotional trauma. When emotional trauma is suppressed in that way, it will continue to grow in the subconscious and start controlling the person's life. Exactly what happened with Anakin.
darth-sinister posted: That was Stover trying to add justification. The TPM novelization and the original novel "Tatooine Ghost" portray Watto as not that bad.
... posted: He never complained because his mother raised him not to. And probably told him that it wouldn't be a good idea. So she is as much to blame for not letting Anakin unleash his emotions.
... posted:See, I don't see Anakin as a victim. That's putting a weakness on his turn. I'm not degrading those who have had tramatic childhoods. What I am saying is that Lucas never plays that up in the films or in the commentary. He does play up the idea that Anakin develops emotional neediness, which is what really drives him to be evil. If Lucas wanted to portray Anakin as a victim, he didn't do it well enough. It looks more like Anakin was a victim, but of his own personal weaknessess. His inability to differentiate (sp) between right and wrong. Obi-wan and the other Jedi, as well as Shmi are showing him what is right and wrong. Palpatine shows him a different point of view, which confuses him. Thus when he tries to apply the teachings to real life situations, he does things that he shouldn't do.
mandragora posted:I see no evidence that his mother raised him to surpress emotions, but that may be the case.
mandroga posted:GL in "the chosen one" documentary: "you see that the person you thought was the villain is really the victim." Hayden in the same documentary stated that Anakin didn't have the opportunity to make a real choice. McDiarmid repeatedly has referred to the influence of Anakin's childhood and the absence of a father - not surprisingly, IMD holds a degree in psychology. No-one of them stated that he was a victim of his own inabilities. For me Lucas' portrayal of Anakin as a victim was done convincingly enough. I know from personal experience what even comparatively moderate child abuse can do to a person - even if such a person appears to lead a relatively normal life from the outside, it's always an influential factor that severely restricts the set of choices you are able to make because you're simply afraid and lack confidence, always having the feeling you're never good enough. Unless this condition is properly treated, telling yourself rationally that you have to let go doesn't help you at all, and surpressing these emotions makes things just worse. I don't need to see him battered by Watto or abused by Gardulla in the movie, the fact that he was a slave, the transmitter issue, the mention of the abuse in the novel is enough for me to see him as a victim - which doesn't mean I'm excusing what he has done or that I'm disburdening from all responsibilities. But I can appreciate how things came to be and that it's not only because of Anakin being unwilling to make the right choice. I think there was a lot more going on there. He came to Coruscant with a lot of psychological baggage. He felt responsible for things he had no influence on, he was afraid of not being good enough, and he couldn't live without a close emotional ties. He didn't get enough help in coming to terms with it, and he didn't have the guts to claim the help he needed from the Jedi or someone else. After all, slaves aren't exactly raised to claim what they need. Palpatine saw this and he saw a lot more - apart from the lack of democratic upbringing, he saw the lack of a father, the loss of an admired mentor (Qui-Gon), and even the sudden absense of the slave master. And gradually and over time, all of these "vacancies" were filled by him, while the Jedi for some reason weren't able to fill the gaps. The end result was an almost complete emotional dependency of Anakin on Palpatine. At least that's my take on it.
darth-sinister posted:Exactly. There isn't any evidence to support it, but then if you're looking at it this way, then you see that's possible.
... posted:What I'm saying as a victim is what you said. We don't need to excuse Anakin's actions. We're supposed to feel sorry, but we are also supposed to not dismiss his crimes as a Sith. Too often one can use the victim card to dismiss or justify illicit and illegal and immoral actions. Palpatine did manipulate him into doing evil. I don't deny that at all. I just don't think that we should totally rely on the slavery issues as a means of making Anakin into a monster. It does have an impact that he starts out as a slave and ends up as a slave. I liked that in "Dark Lord", when he realizes what has become now. I just don't think a "Woe is me, they made me do this" is not needed.
