THEFORCEROCKS posted:Luke isn’t equipped to kill the Sith, but he can conquer them and does so, through compassion. Yeah compassion for his father not the SITH. Remember Luke was trying to kill the Empereror in ROTJ hardly a sign of compassion for him
Dezdmona posted:darth_frared posted i have been reading lots about how we must allow emotions and not repress them [...] Yes, it is important to allow emotions and not “stuff” them. there seems to be an correlation with what you want as an individual and what the collective wants. and identity is shaped between those two Correlation does not mean causality. Society does influence the individual. But the individual still has free will. Identity is an interaction between the two. Individual perceptions of life events experienced or observed will alter the outcome of that interaction in a unique way for each person. i think. because there is self-preservation and also the immense reward you get by giving. but my logic is that you can only give in abundance if you have. and maybe christians have it easier on that part because they have the security of the love of god. Giving in “abundance” is not the only way to give. The gift of time or a “random act of kindness” counts, too. I wouldn't narrow spirituality to Christians. Faith is "the larger mystery of the Universe" anyway, i'm not finished with thinking about how you can make people go the path without actually forcing them. and if they don't accept it, it's also their choice, you know what i mean? No one forces anyone to make the choices they do. I think the concept your looking for is “modeling”. People observe others whose values and ideals are attractive and they develop a desire to follow in their footsteps. The choice is made willingly. i also have the feeling that children, when brought up in a loving climate and in tune with their feelings, will be able to relate to other's pain and joy (to just give those two broad categories) naturally without anyone telling them what to feel. Yep, that’s modeling again. bringing this back to anakin here, i have the feeling that had he been able to deal with his feelings and his past in a meaningful manner (and not having to be quiet about it), he might have emotionally matured to the point that he would have known what is wrong with him. but then i'm also convinced that this kind of emotional learning doesn't take place without being involved in situations and with people who 'talk about things' for lack of a more suitable phrase. I don’t know that Anakin HAD to be quiet about his feelings. There is so much interaction during his maturation that isn’t shown. Anakin had already learned to keep secrets before the Jedi even found him on Tatooine. Critical social learning takes place during the first five years of life. While Anakin was learning about compassion from Shmi, he was also learning about greed and abuse (and stuffing emotions) from Watto.
darth-sinister posted:darth_frared posted:logic isn't everything. they paid a price and probably would still do it again. that's human nature for you. The thing is that emotions aren't helpful if they control you. The Jedi teach their own to control their emotions and to not be ruled by them. This is Lucas' message to us. To not be an emotional sap, otherwise we'll never get anywhere.
darth_frared posted:logic isn't everything. they paid a price and probably would still do it again. that's human nature for you.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:look, maybe you haven't seen it that way before. but the world does revolve around him: he is the chosen one and it's only through him that things will be set either right or wrong. so technically he has every right to demand people to treat him acccording to this status. but he doesn't even do that. he just wants a family. pretty humble, wouldn't you say? Anakin's destiny is to kill the bad guys. That's it. Other than that, he's no different than anyone else. And demanding people treat him with respect is damaging to him. That's being a Sith Lord. A Sith has pride. A Jedi does not. He needs to earn respect, not demand it. And it's not a family that he wants. He wants to rule the galaxy and control people's lives. And if he can't have that, then he'll act like a petulent child and throw a temper tantrum.
darth_frared posted:look, maybe you haven't seen it that way before. but the world does revolve around him: he is the chosen one and it's only through him that things will be set either right or wrong. so technically he has every right to demand people to treat him acccording to this status. but he doesn't even do that. he just wants a family. pretty humble, wouldn't you say?
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:if someone tells you what you need and what you don't need that's patronizing and it's forcing it. do you see the point? The point is that Anakin has to let go of these things. It's not just important to being a Jedi, but it's important to being a person. He has to let go of his attachment to Padme, otherwise he will lose her. And that's exaclty what happens. If you love someone, set them free.
darth_frared posted:if someone tells you what you need and what you don't need that's patronizing and it's forcing it. do you see the point?
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:but if you have a reward as in feeling good about yourself, it cannot be absolute anymore, can it? you know what absolutes are, right? what the sith deal in all the time. Again, you misinterpet the context in which Obi-wan speaks that. He is talking about how the Sith are certain that the future will come to pass. That there are no options. A Jedi always considers possibilities.
darth_frared posted:but if you have a reward as in feeling good about yourself, it cannot be absolute anymore, can it? you know what absolutes are, right? what the sith deal in all the time.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:yes, i'm talking about the *how* of that transition. how do you go from being human and wanting people's love and affection and material possessions to selflessness which we have just deduced isn't an absolute? how do you get there? by force? well, if you do that, you will make something like loving a duty and that doesn't work in my book. No, you get there by identifying your problem. And then putting forth your best effort to correct it. Anakin can have love and affection. He just cannot be married to Padme to have it. Marriage is not a condition of love. Attachment for a Jedi is placing conditions on something. He has to learn to let go of these things. He has to train himself. Luke can do it. Obi-wan did it. Qui-gon did it. Yoda did it. So many others.
darth_frared posted:yes, i'm talking about the *how* of that transition. how do you go from being human and wanting people's love and affection and material possessions to selflessness which we have just deduced isn't an absolute? how do you get there? by force? well, if you do that, you will make something like loving a duty and that doesn't work in my book.
DT421 posted:THEFORCEROCKS posted:Luke isn’t equipped to kill the Sith, but he can conquer them and does so, through compassion. Yeah compassion for his father not the SITH. Remember Luke was trying to kill the Empereror in ROTJ hardly a sign of compassion for him Right. Luke tried to kill the Emperor and then, once Vader pushed the ‘twin sister’ button, tried to kill Vader. And guess what, Luke was failing – giving in to his hate. Remember, the Jedi never once told Luke that he had to confront the Emperor – only Vader. Once Luke finally stopped dodging trying to deal with, or appealing to the ounce of good in his father and dealt with who his father is, that being a twisted and evil Sith, he did so with compassion and broke through. This is how Luke conquered the Sith. Once Luke stopped just short of killing Vader, he figured it out. He then showed compassion for Vader and refused to kill, or physically confront the Emperor.
sinister posted:A Jedi can kill his opponet, they must do so compassionately and not hatefully. The Jedi are supposed to have compassion for everyone, including the Sith. That doesn't mean that they can't kill them. They must do it as a Jedi would and what Luke was trying to do with Sidious and what Anakin did with Tyranus, was not the Jedi way.
darth_frared posted:emotions aren't there to be helpful. they are just there. you can choose to ingore them or you can choose to heed them. either way they are part of your decision-making and your life. i see lucas' message differently, however.
darth_frared posted:anakin is different in almost every other aspect from those around him. or else they don't admit to being like him. he is the very embodiment of human nature which the jedi so desperately try to deny and don't manage.
darth_frared posted:simplifying the saga to good against evil has never struck much of a chord with me. it doesn't apply to much of anything that i see on the screen.
darth_frared posted:demanding respect from other people is the one thing that i hold on to. if people cannot respect my personality and my character why on earth why would i respect them? it's a mutual thing. respect isn't earned, it should be freely given. here, there and everywhere. if no one respects me and my ways just like i must respect them, there is no point to it. respecting a person and showing it, too, will not end in damage. anakin never eypresses any desire to rule the galaxy until he has committed a horrendous mass murder. so i'm not sure where you get this funny idea that he wants to rule the known world.
darth_frared posted:face it. telling someone he *has* to let go is forcing it. i'm not sure how you define force, i define it this way. saying, if you want to be a jedi, you must do the following: forget about your mum, not marry, not have material possessions. and these are the ground rules which you MUST obey, then that is called forcing it. yes, in my book. in yours it may be a gentle reminder, i'm not sure. now if you could convey what the wisdom of letting go is, the independence of material and emotional issues, the independence of your own person, absolute freedom, without having to simply demand to let go end of story, you might succeed. other than that i don't see any logic to your argument of this was not forced. try again.
darth_frared posted: i remember when and where that statement was issued by OWK. i was merely joking here. i apologize if it was lost in translation. the point is, if there is a reward in giving, it is no longer solely about giving, it is also about how you feel good about doing it. and it's a peculiarity of the act that you could teach it that way, you could emphasize the usefulness (for the ego) of the act and make it look like it's all about feeling good for yourself. it's a spin on it, no more no less. it remains relative. the road to hell is paved with good intentions. how many times have you given and your gift was unappreciated? were you not hurt? wasn't your ego affected? it probably was. because giving is also about getting something out of it. and this something maybe knowing that you have brought joy to someone.
darth_frared posted:he has to train himself... BUT HOW? HOW DO YOU END UP LETTING GO? how do you just train yourself to not possess if you don't force it on yourself? because we don't want to force it, do we? we don't want to take all the toys from the baby and then say, yes, you gotta let go. that would make the baby sociopathic and we don't want that, do we? so HOW do we teach it other than forcing? how do you *understand* letting go and what goes with it without perceiving it as 'taking away'? especially if you are a kid? how do you?
darth frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then?
darth frared posted:i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT.
darth_frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then? i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT.
DT421 posted: Right. Luke tried to kill the Emperor and then, once Vader pushed the ‘twin sister’ button, tried to kill Vader. And guess what, Luke was failing – giving in to his hate. Remember, the Jedi never once told Luke that he had to confront the Emperor – only Vader.
sinister posted:Well, there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill. Compassion does not mean that you cannot kill. Compassion means that you do not hate your enemy, or ally or your loved ones. When Obi-wan kills Maul, it is compassionately.
PMT99 posted:They didn't say that Luke wasn't suppose to go after the Emperor either because they know that if Luke somehow defeats Vader, a duel with the Emperor would be inevitable. That's why Yoda warns Luke, Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate, you will.
DT421 posted: Well, PM, Luke does “defeat” Vader and then refused to duel the Emperor and became a Jedi because of it. What Yoda warned Luke about, was exactly what Luke almost fell to, when he tried to strike the Emperor down in the first place. Luke’s destiny is to confront Vader and become a Jedi. This is what the Jedi tell Luke. This is what Luke does. This is all that Luke does. There is nothing about Luke’s destiny that goes beyond that. Anything else is simply something that you’re adding.
