PMT99 posted:This isn't an adding, it is a fact because there is more to Luke's destiny to just bringing his father's soul back from the darkness that is Darth Vader…
PMT99 posted:…which is that if Luke didn't succeed, then he would be forced to kill both Vader and the Emperor.
PMT99 posted:Both Yoda and Obi-wan wanted Luke to do that because they couldn't do the job themselves…
PMT99 posted:…and the only reason Luke refused to duel the Emperor is because he felt that it would only pull him back into the Dark Side and he told the Emperor that he wasn't going to give in. The first time Luke tried to strike down the Emperor was because he was trying to save the Rebels from further attacks from the Death Star at the Emperor's command.
darth-sinister posted:darth_frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then? i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT. Well, there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill. Compassion does not mean that you cannot kill. Compassion means that you do not hate your enemy, or ally or your loved ones. When Obi-wan kills Maul, it is compassionately. He is not doing this out of revenge for Qui-gon. He's doing it because it's the right thing to do. Maul will not surrender. It's kill or be killed. So long as he does it as a Jedi, it's perfectly fine. Anakin killed Dooku out of revenge for all the lives lost to the Clone Wars and his missing forearm. The compassionate thing to have done was just lower his blades and demand that Dooku surrender. When Anakin attacks Mace, he does so fueled by his emotions. He's afraid to lose Padme and angry that he has to choose between the Jedi and the Sith. He's angry that he will lose her. So he lets his hate at the thought of losing her drive him to stop Mace. When Luke fights Vader the first time, he is doing it out of revenge for the death of his father and for Obi-wan. After learning the truth, he is trying to avoid fighting because he doesn't want to kill him. That doesn't mean that he couldn't kill him. It just meant that in this instance, to save himself and his father, he had to not fight this battle physically. But mentally. As it turns out, Vader kills Palpatine and will die as a result of this. Thus the Sith are wiped out and Anakin dies as a good man, having performed an act of compassion.
darth_frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then? i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT.
PMT99 posted:DT421 posted: Well, PM, Luke does “defeat” Vader and then refused to duel the Emperor and became a Jedi because of it. What Yoda warned Luke about, was exactly what Luke almost fell to, when he tried to strike the Emperor down in the first place. Luke’s destiny is to confront Vader and become a Jedi. This is what the Jedi tell Luke. This is what Luke does. This is all that Luke does. There is nothing about Luke’s destiny that goes beyond that. Anything else is simply something that you’re adding. This isn't an adding, it is a fact because there is more to Luke's destiny to just bringing his father's soul back from the darkness that is Darth Vader which is that if Luke didn't succeed, then he would be forced to kill both Vader and the Emperor. Both Yoda and Obi-wan wanted Luke to do that because they couldn't do the job themselves and the only reason Luke refused to duel the Emperor is because he felt that it would only pull him back into the Dark Side and he told the Emperor that he wasn't going to give in. The first time Luke tried to strike down the Emperor was because he was trying to save the Rebels from further attacks from the Death Star at the Emperor's command. Vader stopped Luke from doing so because he knew that killing the Emperor will not be enough to pull Luke down the Dark Side.
DT421 posted: Well, PM, Luke does “defeat” Vader and then refused to duel the Emperor and became a Jedi because of it. What Yoda warned Luke about, was exactly what Luke almost fell to, when he tried to strike the Emperor down in the first place. Luke’s destiny is to confront Vader and become a Jedi. This is what the Jedi tell Luke. This is what Luke does. This is all that Luke does. There is nothing about Luke’s destiny that goes beyond that. Anything else is simply something that you’re adding.
DT421 posted:darth frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then? Well, when you say training and conduct, do you mean the Codes and rules of the Jedi Order? The only Jedi that wasn’t shackled to the Codes and rules, was Qui-Gon, the only Living Force Jedi of the PT. The only thing QG followed, was the Will of the Force. I think when Luke calmed himself, he was also listening to the Force. He trusted his feelings and showed compassion for Vader. He becomes a Jedi.
darth frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then?
DT posted:darth frared posted:i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT. They weren’t justified. The Order was purged because they allowed it to happen to themselves. They were just as motivated by fear as Anakin was and by ROTS end, both had ‘died’. MACE WINDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive. ANAKIN: Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You will need my help if you are going to arrest him. MACE WINDU: For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment. It looks like Anakin’s judgment wasn’t the only one being clouded by fear. Mace states it plainly about the Jedi Order, himself.
darth frared posted:i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT.
YYZ-2112 posted:darth-sinister posted:darth_frared posted:so, with all that said, DT, how have the jedi any right to their way of training and conduct? if compassion means you cannot kill, how are you a jedi then? i mean, you know, i agree with you on the issue, but i don't see how the jedi order is in any way justified doing what they do in the PT. Well, there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill. Compassion does not mean that you cannot kill. Compassion means that you do not hate your enemy, or ally or your loved ones. When Obi-wan kills Maul, it is compassionately. He is not doing this out of revenge for Qui-gon. He's doing it because it's the right thing to do. Maul will not surrender. It's kill or be killed. So long as he does it as a Jedi, it's perfectly fine. Anakin killed Dooku out of revenge for all the lives lost to the Clone Wars and his missing forearm. The compassionate thing to have done was just lower his blades and demand that Dooku surrender. When Anakin attacks Mace, he does so fueled by his emotions. He's afraid to lose Padme and angry that he has to choose between the Jedi and the Sith. He's angry that he will lose her. So he lets his hate at the thought of losing her drive him to stop Mace. When Luke fights Vader the first time, he is doing it out of revenge for the death of his father and for Obi-wan. After learning the truth, he is trying to avoid fighting because he doesn't want to kill him. That doesn't mean that he couldn't kill him. It just meant that in this instance, to save himself and his father, he had to not fight this battle physically. But mentally. As it turns out, Vader kills Palpatine and will die as a result of this. Thus the Sith are wiped out and Anakin dies as a good man, having performed an act of compassion.I agree on the part of Obi Wan killing Maul because (and this is important) Qui Gon was still alive. Obi Wan here is thinking of Qui Gon because he's the only one there to protect him. He did sort of lose his cool a bit though; which really is understandable for a Padawan who saw his Master cut down. It's the same with Anakin when he kills the Emperor. It's not a killing for the sake of violent takeover; it's to protect the helpless. Although Luke is his son and therefore a greater concern to Anakin; I think that it could have been anyone being electrocuted and Anakin would have reacted the same way. The catalist was Luke showing mercy and throwing is lightsaber down at the risk of his own life. It's the same way Obi Wan raised his saber in passive resistance to Vader; allowing Vader to cut him down. I always felt he didn't want to kill Vader for sake of Anakin but besides that; he's thinking of the welfare of the others, particularly Luke and by ending the conflict with Vader, Luke can let go and leave the death star without feeling like they abandoned Old Ben.
darth_frared posted:i kind of said training and conduct for lack of a better phrase. i meant 'whatever they do as the jedi order'. and i see you agree with it anyway. you know what it looks like though? that your 'listening to the force's will' is a metaphor for independence of spirit. QGJ has it, and luke will have it again, but anakin cannot achieve it within the order as it is. what puzzles me is how QGJ could achieve it within the order.
darth_frared posted:i'm with you. so do you think wiping out the jedi order was a necessary part to the prophecy business?
darth_frared posted:there is also the small issue of self-preservation which keeps us alive during fights, it also keeps jedi alive. if all they did was run into combat with arms wide open, there'd be only a small group of them left, hidden in a cage somewhere, shivering becuase they couldn't make fire by themselves for fear of igniting their sabers...
darth-sinister posted:darth_frared posted:emotions aren't there to be helpful. they are just there. you can choose to ingore them or you can choose to heed them. either way they are part of your decision-making and your life. i see lucas' message differently, however. As Lucas puts it, a Jedi must rely less on their emotions and more on logic. Luke makes a much calmer and more rational decision not to fight, then when he was relying on his emotions to deal with his situation. Lucas even says he'd like to see humans be less emotional when going through life.
darth_frared posted:emotions aren't there to be helpful. they are just there. you can choose to ingore them or you can choose to heed them. either way they are part of your decision-making and your life. i see lucas' message differently, however.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:anakin is different in almost every other aspect from those around him. or else they don't admit to being like him. he is the very embodiment of human nature which the jedi so desperately try to deny and don't manage. His problem is that he lets his emotions dictate his actions. A Jedi cannot afford to do that, otherwise they will be lost. Anakin is lost because of that.
darth_frared posted:anakin is different in almost every other aspect from those around him. or else they don't admit to being like him. he is the very embodiment of human nature which the jedi so desperately try to deny and don't manage.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:simplifying the saga to good against evil has never struck much of a chord with me. it doesn't apply to much of anything that i see on the screen. Well, ultimately that's what it comes down to. Good and evil.
darth_frared posted:simplifying the saga to good against evil has never struck much of a chord with me. it doesn't apply to much of anything that i see on the screen.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:demanding respect from other people is the one thing that i hold on to. if people cannot respect my personality and my character why on earth why would i respect them? it's a mutual thing. respect isn't earned, it should be freely given. here, there and everywhere. if no one respects me and my ways just like i must respect them, there is no point to it. respecting a person and showing it, too, will not end in damage. anakin never eypresses any desire to rule the galaxy until he has committed a horrendous mass murder. so i'm not sure where you get this funny idea that he wants to rule the known world. Respect and trust has to be earned. Especially when there is a reason to believe that that trust and respect will be **** upon, by the other. That's just the way it is. Is it right, that depends on who you ask. You can give respect and still get kicked in the face for it. It happens. Anakin was given all kinds of trust and respect by the Council, right up until he blew a gasket. That's when trust became an issue. They couldn't trust him to remain objective. And the issue of respect is that Anakin thinks he needs to be a Jedi Master. He thinks that he's deserving of it. But he hasn't proven he's worthy. Not with that outburst, he hasn't. To be a Jedi Master, a Jedi Knight must prove that they have an understanding of the Force and have Mastered their emotions. Anakin is far from there.
darth_frared posted:demanding respect from other people is the one thing that i hold on to. if people cannot respect my personality and my character why on earth why would i respect them? it's a mutual thing. respect isn't earned, it should be freely given. here, there and everywhere. if no one respects me and my ways just like i must respect them, there is no point to it. respecting a person and showing it, too, will not end in damage. anakin never eypresses any desire to rule the galaxy until he has committed a horrendous mass murder. so i'm not sure where you get this funny idea that he wants to rule the known world.
sinister posted:And as to wanting to rule, it's not so much that early on. It's that he wants to make people do things his way. He's already agreeing with the idea of a dictatorship, before he finds out that Palpatine is a Sith. Once that's done, he's got no problems with that idea.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:face it. telling someone he *has* to let go is forcing it. i'm not sure how you define force, i define it this way. saying, if you want to be a jedi, you must do the following: forget about your mum, not marry, not have material possessions. and these are the ground rules which you MUST obey, then that is called forcing it. yes, in my book. in yours it may be a gentle reminder, i'm not sure. now if you could convey what the wisdom of letting go is, the independence of material and emotional issues, the independence of your own person, absolute freedom, without having to simply demand to let go end of story, you might succeed. other than that i don't see any logic to your argument of this was not forced. try again. No one is demanding Anakin to let go. They're telling him that in order to deal with his problems, he must let go of his attachments. No one tells him to forget Padme or Shmi. They're telling him to be in control of his emotions and to not cling to the people in his life.
darth_frared posted:face it. telling someone he *has* to let go is forcing it. i'm not sure how you define force, i define it this way. saying, if you want to be a jedi, you must do the following: forget about your mum, not marry, not have material possessions. and these are the ground rules which you MUST obey, then that is called forcing it. yes, in my book. in yours it may be a gentle reminder, i'm not sure. now if you could convey what the wisdom of letting go is, the independence of material and emotional issues, the independence of your own person, absolute freedom, without having to simply demand to let go end of story, you might succeed. other than that i don't see any logic to your argument of this was not forced. try again.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted: i remember when and where that statement was issued by OWK. i was merely joking here. i apologize if it was lost in translation. the point is, if there is a reward in giving, it is no longer solely about giving, it is also about how you feel good about doing it. and it's a peculiarity of the act that you could teach it that way, you could emphasize the usefulness (for the ego) of the act and make it look like it's all about feeling good for yourself. it's a spin on it, no more no less. it remains relative. the road to hell is paved with good intentions. how many times have you given and your gift was unappreciated? were you not hurt? wasn't your ego affected? it probably was. because giving is also about getting something out of it. and this something maybe knowing that you have brought joy to someone. Even if your gift is unappreciated, there is solace in the fact that you gave without asking for something in return. Even if no one acknowledges what you have done, it shouldn't matter. The mere fact that you give and get nothing, is enough. Feeling good about what you have done is far more acceptable than being acknowledged and given something back for it. Obi-wan does things without asking for something in return. He has no ego in his actions. He has no ego to bruise. Anakin has an enormous ego that is easily bruised. Ergo when he gives and thinks that he's entitled to a reward, but doesn't get it, he's upset. Obi-wan warns him and has warned him that such things are not right. Once upon a time, he was content to give and not expect anything in return. Now that's all he lives for.
darth_frared posted: i remember when and where that statement was issued by OWK. i was merely joking here. i apologize if it was lost in translation. the point is, if there is a reward in giving, it is no longer solely about giving, it is also about how you feel good about doing it. and it's a peculiarity of the act that you could teach it that way, you could emphasize the usefulness (for the ego) of the act and make it look like it's all about feeling good for yourself. it's a spin on it, no more no less. it remains relative. the road to hell is paved with good intentions. how many times have you given and your gift was unappreciated? were you not hurt? wasn't your ego affected? it probably was. because giving is also about getting something out of it. and this something maybe knowing that you have brought joy to someone.
sinister posted:darth_frared posted:he has to train himself... BUT HOW? HOW DO YOU END UP LETTING GO? how do you just train yourself to not possess if you don't force it on yourself? because we don't want to force it, do we? we don't want to take all the toys from the baby and then say, yes, you gotta let go. that would make the baby sociopathic and we don't want that, do we? so HOW do we teach it other than forcing? how do you *understand* letting go and what goes with it without perceiving it as 'taking away'? especially if you are a kid? how do you? For starters, you have to open your mind to possibilities. To change. And then you must accept and embrace it. Anakin has to calm himself, which is the first step. He's a Jedi. He has practiced meditation for years. There's a reason for it. He must clear his mind of question and of doubt. Next he has to be rational. You have to make an effort to do that. Just as you have to make an effort in anything. Whether you force it or not, you have to try to do it. You don't just get in a car and expect to drive right off the bat. You have to practice how to do. And then you have to practice to not be a lead foot. Then you have to learn how to take proper precautions on how to drive, to minimize your chances of an accident. Luke had to learn to let go of his anger and hate, which he does. He forces it out of his body. He learns to let go of his dark feelings. Just as Obi-wan did. Just as every Jedi does. They all make the effort to do it. Yoda doesn't tell Anakin that he'll be kicked out if he doesn't train himself to let go. He tells him that he must do it. That's what training is. It's learning how to do it. He can be with Padme. He just cannot let his fears control him. He must stop being scared. He must learn to control his fear. He must accept that the world is what it is. He must accept that people will come and go. He just has to open his mind and think in a clear, logical manner.
darth_frared posted:he has to train himself... BUT HOW? HOW DO YOU END UP LETTING GO? how do you just train yourself to not possess if you don't force it on yourself? because we don't want to force it, do we? we don't want to take all the toys from the baby and then say, yes, you gotta let go. that would make the baby sociopathic and we don't want that, do we? so HOW do we teach it other than forcing? how do you *understand* letting go and what goes with it without perceiving it as 'taking away'? especially if you are a kid? how do you?
It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act -- when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" --that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart. -- George Lucas, Time Interview with Bill Moyers
OBIWAN-JR posted:>>>> i love lucas to a tee but this staement makes me wonder how much it was taken out of context. Here's the quote, Frared: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act -- when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" --that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart. -- George Lucas, Time Interview with Bill Moyers
Jr posted:>>>> if anything, we are so little relying on our feelings, anything concerning them that i pity anyone who asks for even *less* of it. right now we are basically at a stage that we acknowledge we have them. But there is a world of difference between understanding your emotions and being in touch with them. And being LED by your emotions.
DT posted:Well, I don’t really know anything of EU, so I really don’t know what QG’s past was like, other than he was trained by Dooku.
DT posted:That’s tricky. I don’t believe that the Force intentionally put things in motion to place the Jedi in such peril. I think the Jedi had just as much to do with what happened to them, as Sidious did. I think the Jedi had an opportunity with QG and Anakin to get themselves back on track – that being, becoming servants of the Force again, instead of servants and warriors to a Republic. They blew their chance. They were not equipped to train Anakin to do the Force’s Will, as they weren’t even doing it themselves. Maybe it took a perceived ‘tragedy’ to force the Jedi to change.
TheCRZA posted:^^^^^ If you look up double standard in a dictionary, you just might see that very explanation as an illustration. I agree with you on Obi Wan, only, I don't think Obi Wan was cognitively thinking, this is the right, stately, Jedi thing to do, kill without malice. I think he was thinking, this guy is about to kill me. And I'd rather not be dead just now. Dooku, meh. He was on his knees, dumbfounded. How explicitly does one need to express "No mas?" I really have no problem with Anakin killing Dooku for the same rationale (not exactly the same reasoning) that Mace used for his intent to kill Sidious. Too dangerous to be left alive.
DT421 posted:Of course there is nothing that says a Jedi cannot kill, unless in the PT a Jedi quotes that it was against the “Jedi way” – Anakin/Dooku. And when Obi killed Dooku, it wasn’t an act of compassion. He cleared his mind of anger and simply did what he had to do. I think you’re confusing compassion for doing something without anger. Had Obi actually done the compassionate thing, he would have leapt over Maul, only 'disarmed' him and then take him prisoner.
OBIWAN-JR posted:darth_frared posted:i love lucas to a tee but this staement makes me wonder how much it was taken out of context. if anything, we are so little relying on our feelings, anything concerning them that i pity anyone who asks for even *less* of it. right now we are basically at a stage that we acknowledge we have them. But there is a world of difference between understanding your emotions and being in touch with them. And being LED by your emotions.
darth_frared posted:i love lucas to a tee but this staement makes me wonder how much it was taken out of context. if anything, we are so little relying on our feelings, anything concerning them that i pity anyone who asks for even *less* of it. right now we are basically at a stage that we acknowledge we have them.
darth_frared posted:quite right. anakin cannot be a good jedi because he should have to deny his basic personality in order to be a jedi, a sort of mindless and emotionless machine.
darth_frared posted:sorry, but right now this bores me stiff. if it came down to good vs evil i most definitely wouldn't like it. which is also a circular argument because you don't know me and all. but it s a fact for me.
darth_frared posted:they didn't trust him before. they didn't trust him when he was s mall boy. they didn't trust him even when he delivered. they didn't trust him.
darth_frared posted:if you only give respect when it's earned, how can people respect you in social conduct because they have to prove first how worthy they are of your respect. that's kind of gang mentality, isn't it? if i walk into a shop i want to be respected as a person and a customer, i know when this is being hurt, when people suddenly decide they could just invade my privacy and stuff. and likewise, others are asking the same of me. without me knowing them. it's basic.
darth_frared posted:oh sure he has no problems with the idea. but he never expresses the wish to rule anyone. he just wants to make thing sbetter. there is a difference. i'm not sure how many times i have had better ideas than the politicians on TV, or i though i had anyway, and i'm still not running a dictatorship, not to my recollection at least. i'm sure you have interpreted that exchange as foreshadowing, which is part of it, but it's also much burdened with knowing what will happen. remember that he *doesn't* say, i want to make people agree. he says *someone* should.
darth_frared posted:'let go of everything you are afraid to lose' does that ring a bell? and where does this leave choice?
darth_frared posted:oh, hehe, i'm pretty sure obi-wan has an ego in his actions, otherwise it wouldn't be hurt so many times, wouldn't it? as he gets older, he is more relaxed about it, for sure.
darth_frared posted:maybe you should reread. especially the bold stuff. if that is not forcing, then tell me what forcing is to you.
DT421 posted: Luke’s only destiny is to become a Jedi, while facing Vader. The only thing Luke has to do, is conquer his fears. When you think about it, besides Qui-Gon, Luke is the only one in the entire Saga, that doesn’t get conquered by his own fear. Anakin fell to his – the Jedi Order fell to theirs. All Luke can do, is the right thing. Only that can compel his father to let go of his hate, but that is still his father’s choice to make.
DT421 posted:Easier said than done, considering Luke wasn’t “equipped” to. And if you bring up the fact that Luke beat Vader, I’ll just kindly tell you that he do so, with aid of the Dark Side and his hatred.
DT421 posted:Interesting that with Yoda and Obi becoming Living Force Jedi, they’d be so fixated on what they want Luke to do in the future. They recognize Luke’s destiny and train Luke to have the Force as his ally. They want Luke to listen to the Force, trust his instincts and resist the Dark Side. That’s ALL that they expected from Luke. Essentially, like Qui-Gon, choose to do the Force’s Will.
DT421 posted:Hatred was the reason Luke tried to strike the Emperor down, PM.
PMT99 posted:Just because Luke was able to conquer his fears doesn't mean that he's forbidden to kill. Obi-wan would've died if he didn't finish off Darth Maul and Mace Windu would've suffered the same quick death as his Jedi posse if he didn't try to kill PalpSidious. Both Obi-wan and Yoda knew that if Vader wasn't going to let go of his hate, then Luke will be forced to do what he told Obi-wan that he wouldn't do...kill his own father.
PMT99 posted:We don't know how equipped Luke is but that still doesn't mean that he can't destroy both Vader and the Emperor on his own since the Emperor himself believes that he can.
PMT99 posted:They also want Luke to destroy the Sith because he's the only Jedi left with the power to do so. Obi-wan and Yoda did NOT train Luke to be a Jedi nor did they give him a lightsaber just so he can guilt-trip Vader into giving up the Dark Side since they were preparing him to do more than that. They also wouldn't be lying to Luke about his father if they really planned for him to save Vader.
PMT99 posted:There was no hatred because Luke didn't react the same way he did when Vader threaten to turn Leia into a Sith. That's why Vader stopped him.
darth-sinister posted: darth_frared posted:sorry, but right now this bores me stiff. if it came down to good vs. evil i most definitely wouldn't like it. which is also a circular argument because you don't know me and all. but it s a fact for me. I never said that I know you. I'm just saying that with Star Wars, it comes down to good and evil. Right and wrong. Positive and negative. A Jedi controls their emotions and are not controlled by them. The Sith use their emotions to gain power and are ultimately controlled by both.
darth_frared posted:sorry, but right now this bores me stiff. if it came down to good vs. evil i most definitely wouldn't like it. which is also a circular argument because you don't know me and all. but it s a fact for me.
Dezdmona posted:It’s not as simple as good vs. evil Sinister. IMO Lucas spoke to the nuances of shades of gray and reinforced the concept of a “certain points of view” in the prequels. The question is where is the ethical line and how close do you want to step up to it? (...and how hard is it to step back if you step over?) A Jedi must learn to manage his/her emotions so they are not controlled by them, yet it is imperative that they have, feel and express emotions. (The words “control emotions” sometimes connotates a “lack of”, although this is incorrect, the mental image is can be that of a person who lacks empathy.) The Sith use the emotions of Anger and Hate to fuel their drive to gain power. These are negative emotions. The Sith use power and control to intimidate, enslave and instill fear in others. There is always a weakness in people, (or governments) who use power/oppression to control others.
darth-sinister posted:The shades of gray do show how one can confuse the lines of good and evil, especially as justification of doing things that are wrong. I don't deny that. But the overall theme is the battle between good and evil. The shades of gray show us how Anakin, Dooku, the Imperials and the Separatist Council justify their actions.
