| Author |
Topic:
Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
PadmeLeiaJaina
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 1:54am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
JohnWesleyDowney posted:
Expert analysis and beautifully written as always by PLJ.
She should write a book.
Why thank you John 
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
RedKitten
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 4:36am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
darthOB1 posted:
When I took my wife to see the movie, afterwards she said she hated this movie so bad she would never watch it again. Why? "Because it was soooo violent and he killed little children!"
I tried to reason with her about the violence part. I asked her to expalin how it was she though this PG13 movie was so much more violent than a movie she loved, Gladiator that was rated R.
Simple, she siad "because they didn't kill little kids"
So even though it was not shown it was the idea that made it much worse than that of the bloody, loss of limbs scenes that were shown in the other movie.
Go figure.
But they show..... Krt Russells kid, dead and bloody.... Reason with her via that.
-----signature-----
Tim Horton's uses glitterstim extract in thier coffee
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 8:49am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
I really think this idea that Anakin is redeemed by his saving Luke is a weak contrast to his supposed selfishness in wanting to save Padme. OK, saving Luke saved the galaxy and got rid of the Emperor (a by-product), while trying to save Padme brought on destruction. Both acts involve saving a family member, though one produces benefits that serve others while the other leads to the murdering of innocents. The outcomes are very different but the motive on the part of Anakin/Vader is the same: Saving his family.
The difference between Luke and Padme is that Anakin does evil deeds to protect the latter. His vision implied that he was going to die a natural death, and Anakin sought out unnatural means to save her. He didn't care who would be harmed in the process as long as Padme remained his possession. This is a very selfish motivation.
Anakin's motivation for saving Luke isn't selfish at all. Luke isn't dying a natural death and can be saved without turning to evil. As a matter of fact, Vader had to turn away from the dark side to help Luke. There's no reason to let Luke die when Anakin can protect him by simply killing the Emperor.
If a random Jedi who wasn't Anakin's son was being electrocuted, he wouldn't have cared. The fact that Luke is his son did influence Anakin's decision to help him. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anakin did a compassionate and selfless deed by saving Luke. Anakin needed his son to help him come back to the light, but Anakin still made the choice to do what is right in the end.
-----signature-----
Non so d'onde viene quel tenero affetto. http://boards.outerrimsieges.com
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
AnnLouise
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 9:31am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
Fat_Bird posted:
It was fast to me (and to others as well). It just seemed unreal to kill his fellow Jedis and the younglings that quickly. All to save two people (his wife and kid). Don't you see the irony in murdering children to save his child? And he was so mindless about it. This from a Jedi who didn't always listen to his master Obi-Wan or to the Jedi Council? So turning to the darkside makes a person a mindless lapdog in a blink of the eye? Even after he realized that Palpatine didn't have the answer to saving Padme?
Also, killing Sandpeople and their children is NOT the same as what he did to the Jedi. With the Sandpeople, he killed STRANGERS in a mindless murderous rage because some of them killed his mother. The Jedi and the younglings were NOT strangers. They were in effect his "family." What did they do to him? NOTHING. He killed them because he was a mindless lapdog doing his new master's bidding. He can't blame it on mindless rage, can he? No. He doesn't even have that excuse.
-His mindlessness, to me, came from a "just following orders" mentality Anakin used to avoid taking any resposibility. Same with "the power of the Dark Side" - it's always something/someone else with Anakin. His actions after becoming a Sith remind me of GL's statements about the Vietnam echoes in SW and how Palpy was partly inspired by Nixon. To me, that makes Anakin a glorified Lt. Calley.
-Killing strangers or killing his "family" - Murder is murder. I can't agree with using the death of Shmi to mitigate Anakin's actions in AOTC because then you can lessen the importance of the Tusken slaughter in his downfall. In that act, Anakin learned he could give in to rage, get away with it if the victims didn't matter, and not suffer any disapproval from the one closest to him(Padme).
-----signature-----
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man" Matty Walker - Body Heat (1981) http://thehungersite.com http://www.endabuse.org http://www.librarything.com Catalog Your Books Online Violence Against Women Is Always Wrong
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
farrellg posted:
I really think this idea that Anakin is redeemed by his saving Luke is a weak contrast to his supposed selfishness in wanting to save Padme. OK, saving Luke saved the galaxy and got rid of the Emperor (a by-product), while trying to save Padme brought on destruction. Both acts involve saving a family member, though one produces benefits that serve others while the other leads to the murdering of innocents. The outcomes are very different but the motive on the part of Anakin/Vader is the same: Saving his family.
The difference between Luke and Padme is that Anakin does evil deeds to protect the latter. His vision implied that he was going to die a natural death, and Anakin sought out unnatural means to save her. He didn't care who would be harmed in the process as long as Padme remained his possession. This is a very selfish motivation.
Anakin's motivation for saving Luke isn't selfish at all. Luke isn't dying a natural death and can be saved without turning to evil. As a matter of fact, Vader had to turn away from the dark side to help Luke. There's no reason to let Luke die when Anakin can protect him by simply killing the Emperor.
If a random Jedi who wasn't Anakin's son was being electrocuted, he wouldn't have cared. The fact that Luke is his son did influence Anakin's decision to help him. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anakin did a compassionate and selfless deed by saving Luke. Anakin needed his son to help him come back to the light, but Anakin still made the choice to do what is right in the end.
Correct. It's all about motivation. Padme was only in danger from Anakin. He didn't get that his vision was telling him that she will die if he continues to do evil acts. Luke did get what the vision on Dagobah was telling him. That if he kills his father in anger and hate, he will become his father. Luke had enough presence of mind to realize this before it was too late.
Anakin was being selfish in wanting to keep Padme from dying. He had no proof that this vision would come to pass, just cause he had two that came true before. He has forgotten the rule about visions, that they are always in motion. He didn't consider the possibility that it might not come to pass. He only considered that it was absolute and unavoidable. He was willing to sell his soul for power. He became obsessed with power to make up for his own insecurities. He was afraid to lose those that he loved and that fear was driving him nuts. By training to let go of his fears, would he be able to face whatever came next.
Anakin wanted to cheat death, which is not natural as Lucas defines it. Death is a natural part of life and Anakin's visions look like nature is taking it's course. She will die giving birth. It wouldn't matter if it was natural or c-section. Anakin couldn't accept nature and thus fought against it, which is wrong. With Luke, he is being killed by another man. That is not natural. That's murder. That is within his ability to do something. Anakin's not thinking of himself anymore. He's thinking about what his son would want him to do. Something he failed to do with Padme, who didn't want him to be all powerful.
Anakin let go of his emotional attachments and performed an act of compassion, worthy of his Jedi heritage. He stopped being greedy and selfish. And he realized his mistakes in trying to prevent Padme's death.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
MystikalMaceWindu
Registered:
Feb '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 1:44pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
I do agree with your general point, that Anakin's "official" turn was rushed.
I found it seriously rushed, when at one moment, Anakin falls to the seat, and is crying, "What have I done? What have I done?" after helping to kill Mace. Then, seemingly mere minutes later, he's conspiring with Palpatine on how to find and kill the Jedi.
his turn should have been shown to us over at least two or three scenes.
I would have had Palpatine "seducing" Anakin more. After cries, What have I done? Palpatine starts to fill his head up more, saying, (similar to how he does in the movie) that if the Senate finds out what happened there, they'd be in some serious trouble. That part should have been elaborated on, with Anakin still questioning his actions, and Palpatine telling him, that there's no turning back since he just helped kill a senior member of the Council, Mace Windu no less, and that the Jedi/Senate would likely execute him for his actions, and that the only way to be saved is to come with him, Palpatine. And we hear the Jedi coming, looking for Mace, and Palpatine leads the confused Anakin away....
and it's only later, that we see Anakin make his pledge to Sidious, perhaps some scenes of debate/argument between the two, and we see Sidious stepping up his anger and control over Anakin.
LegoDroid posted:
Because it pretty much killed the story.
This scene is so pivotal to where the whole story behind ROTC falls apart. It just isn't believable. Now you can say whay you will about the influence of the dark side of the force and how it could twist someone who was otherwise good into someone who was mostly evil (can't be pure evil because as we all know, "There is still good in him...."). I think what I struggled with when watching this film was that the whole transformation from Anakin to Vader took all of about an hour. One hour he's going to turn in Palpatine to the Jedi council, the next he's slaughtering younglings. It just didn't jive. GL worked very hard to lay out exactly why he had to do this. <Saving Padme's life> requires <Strength in the Dark Side> therefore <kill lots of Jedi>. It just isn't believable. It would have made more sense to me if Palpatine had started him off slowly. Killing a few Jedi here, a few Jedi there. Maybe over the space of a couple of months. Something like a slow slide into madness instead of a sudden reversal. Then as the Dark Side truly takes over, then start slaughtering children. Of course, GL has set in his mind that the events of Vader's transformation from Anakin to suited Vader take all of about 48 hours. Why? Why couldn't it have been stretched out? Why does this disappoint me? Because I am a huge fan of character development and plot. Here, there was almost none. Anakin did not become Vader. Anakin disappeared and Vader took his place. Certainly fits in with Obi-wan's lie to Like in ANH. Still, it doesn't make any sense. Where did this evil Vader come from? Why does he have remorse about helping to kill Mace, but an hour later, is slaughtering children? Where is the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? Where are the incremental steps along the way?
If the scene could have been improved, he could have had Vader show even a hint of trepidation. Maybe something to demonstrate how there is "still good in him," right before the Dark Side reasserts itself. In other words, SHOW the transformation.
Ok, rant over. Flame away.
-LegoDroid
-----signature-----
Yoda and Mace Windu in 2008! A Unifying Force!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
darth-sinister posted:
Anakin let go of his emotional attachments and performed an act of compassion, worthy of his Jedi heritage. He stopped being greedy and selfish. And he realized his mistakes in trying to prevent Padme's death.
So close to having me on your side for once, Sinister, but not quite. Lucas/Yoda's "let go of emotional attachments" is absurd. Love is an emotional attachment, and a mighty big one. Anakin's problem isn't his attachment, it's that is attachment has turned from love to coveting, wanting something for himself.
In the end, Anakin turns back to good precisely because of an emotional attachment, specifically his love of his son. And his son is able to be saved by his father because he too acted out of the same emotional attachment in not killing him.
-----signature-----
A perfect world: a house in the Hamptons with two solaria and a horse named Prickely Pete,
Dr. van Nostrand as my primary care physician,
the O-OT legally available on DVD in a quality worthy of its greatness
and Luke the undisputed hero of Star Wars
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
adamlee
Registered:
Mar '04
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
|
I think it would be better to say that Anakin let go of his need for control and his fear of death.He commits a true act of love by saving Luke.He says the Jedi are selfless and with killing the Emperor he finally does a selfless act.I can relate to the idea of being scared of dying.Some would say Anakin will do anything to save Padme.But I don't think he would give up his life for her.He says I can't live without her.But the only time I think Anakin puts himself truly in danger, and not for her,is with Obi Wan.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
JediCouncilMaster
Registered:
Jun '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 8:39pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
Hello? We are talking about young kids here. Of course you'll be shocked. Who wouldn't?  The Younglings had no weapons, excluding their training sabers which will not prove to be effective against a Jedi Knight/Sith Apprentice. Anakin killed them in cold-blood. Now I'd come up there and [bleep]-slap Anakin for doing that. But that's just me.
-----signature-----
"Traditor carved out his heart, never to let love kill him...his evil kept him alive." - Shaman
iTunes - How To Save A Life (The Fray) - POTC The Kraken (Hans Zimmer)
"Life is cruel! Why should the afterlife be any different?!" - Davy Jones
doomgiver007
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 11:26pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
yankee8255 posted:
So close to having me on your side for once, Sinister, but not quite. Lucas/Yoda's "let go of emotional attachments" is absurd. Love is an emotional attachment, and a mighty big one. Anakin's problem isn't his attachment, it's that is attachment has turned from love to coveting, wanting something for himself.
In the end, Anakin turns back to good precisely because of an emotional attachment, specifically his love of his son. And his son is able to be saved by his father because he too acted out of the same emotional attachment in not killing him.
Well, you may disagree but those are the facts. There's two types of love. Unconditional love which is compassion and conditional or possessive love which is attachment. Anakin confuses the two and falls to the Dark Side, because he's unwilling to let go of people. He can love them. All Jedi can love. They just cannot become attached to people in that way. Had he been trained from birth, he wouldn't have had these problems. They would've taught him how to love properly.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
KrystinaSkywalker
Registered:
Dec '05
|
Date Posted:
12/29/05 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
|
The thing that really got me when Anakin (or I suppose it should be Vader) walked into the council room was the way the kids ran out of hiding, trusting him to protect them only to be murdered. I thought it was a great illustration of the vastness of Anakin's betrayel of not just the Jedi, but his entire moral code. It was still extremely shocking, yeah you knew he was going to do it, but it was the personal way he did it, like someone (sorry, I think it was on page 1, I'm not sure who it was) said, it wasn't like just a building blowing up and knowing both kids and adults were dieing inside, and it wasn't the clones shooting them down from a distance either, it was Ankain's lightsaber.
-----signature-----
Ghost Story http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/22740009/p1/?1 pre OT Vader fic, NO LONGER A VIGGIE "If it weren't for electricity we'd all be watching television by candlelight." - George Gobel Formerly ShaydremMoon... then I grew up I'm forgi
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
FallenKnight88
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
12/30/05 12:06am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
The fact that it was innocent CHILDREN that he murdered is what made it so shocking for me. 
I mean this type of crime is something supposably even the most despicable criminals in prison find "crossing the line". Child killers are at the bottom rung of the prison hierachy...least based on what I've heard, so take that for what you will...
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
TheCRZA
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
12/30/05 1:13am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
Well, just playing Devil's Advocate here, but how innocent
can any Jedi be? Child or no?
Did you see what one young padawan (Zett) did to a squad
of the 501st? He damn near escaped.
It's not as though Anakin marched into an orphanage
(well, in some ways, i guess he did), anyway,
an orphanage of not-jedi kids...
The Jedi, by virtue of their actions vis a vis the Republic,
were a particularly dogmatic and political group.
The jedi did attempt a coup d'etat, rather one agrees
with their goals or not.
Is it so hard to believe that the next generation
of Jedi would pose a serious threat to the stability
of the government?
-----signature-----
"When I give food to the poor,
I am a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food,
I am a communist."
-Hélder Câmara
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Obi_Frans
Registered:
Jul '03
|
Date Posted:
12/30/05 3:33am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
TheCRZA posted:
Well, just playing Devil's Advocate here, but how innocent
can any Jedi be? Child or no?
Their abilities don't make them guilty or innocent of anything, just like our ability to pull triggers of guns doesn't make us guilty of anything.
It's their actions, their intents etc etc - and the Younglings were innocent in every meaning of the word. They had nothing to do with "the rebellion" that the Jedi, and they, were slaughtered for.
I understand what you're saying, they're Jedi - and they're, as Luke later proves, forces that could/would grow up to become powerful adversaries. But they are still innocent.
-----signature-----
"He only wanted to save them. Padme, from death. Obi-Wan, from ignorance
But they failed to recognize his power. Instead, Padme was dead & Obi-Wan was running for his life
As stripped of everything as Vader was. Without friends, family, purpose"
- Vader
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
SHAD0W-JEDI
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
12/30/05 3:58am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
|
What I do find a BIT troubling -- while YES, acknowledging that ROTS is "just" a movie! -- is the number of folks who will twist and turn and contort themselves trying to excuse, rationalize, or minimize Vader's actions, or the Emperor's.
Vader slaughtered a roomful of kids who turned to him for help. Period. He did it personally, with his own hand. That is monstrous. In every detail.
It is perversely intriguing... on other Threads, we see folks arguing that Mace was wrong to want to kill Sidious, because Sidious had surrendered, was helpless (although many Sidious fans bitterly resent and fight that last bit, granted!... lets just say that he appeared to be helpless, perhaps because he WANTED to), etc... while on THIS Thread some argue that the Jedi Younglings were a threat to Sidious/the Empire and it was thus rational to kill them. The only consistency I see in those two positions is that both excuse Anakin and/or the Emperor for their evil behavior.
There IS no excuse for what Anakin did. He did indeed fall to the Dark Side, and became EVIL. He didn't become "confused", or simply have another value system....*S*...he became EVIL. THis is one case where it simply isn't that complicated! IMHO...
Shadow
As to redemption...tricky thing there. I think it might have been better to say, as some have noted, that Anakin returned from the Dark Side.. and maybe...MAYBE...was forgiven. That is a different matter, and one that I think is perhaps a bit too metaphysical/"religious" to be touched on in depth. Would only note that in, say, the Christitan faith, one can be forgiven for nearly anything with true repentance - not because one DESERVES forgiveness, but because of God's infinite mercy. I think, in some ways, Lucas is suggesting something similar, minus the ties, specifically, to Christianity. I am NOT trying to stir up a religious debate, nor give offense, and I realize the SW universe draws on philosophical concepts that cut across many faiths and cultures. What i am trying to say -- clumsily perhaps! -- is that saying that saving Luke and killing the Emperor "redeems" Anakin, or somehow evens the ledger, doesn't "feel right", if one is truly looking to balance the scales (decades of utter evil washed away by a moment of good, motivated by a desire to save his own son?). But I don't think that this is really what GL was aiming for. Anakin's past evils are not somehow erased, but his return to the Light Side is still something to be celebrated....
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
