Obi_Frans posted:

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Their abilities don't make them guilty or innocent of anything, just like our ability to pull triggers of guns doesn't make us guilty of anything.

It's their actions, their intents etc etc - and the Younglings were innocent in every meaning of the word. They had nothing to do with "the rebellion" that the Jedi, and they, were slaughtered for.

I understand what you're saying, they're Jedi - and they're, as Luke later proves, forces that could/would grow up to become powerful adversaries. But they are still innocent.

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SHAD0W-JEDI posted:

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As to redemption...tricky thing there. I think it might have been better to say, as some have noted, that Anakin returned from the Dark Side.. and maybe...MAYBE...was forgiven. That is a different matter, and one that I think is perhaps a bit too metaphysical/"religious" to be touched on in depth. Would only note that in, say, the Christitan faith, one can be forgiven for nearly anything with true repentance - not because one DESERVES forgiveness, but because of God's infinite mercy. I think, in some ways, Lucas is suggesting something similar, minus the ties, specifically, to Christianity. I am NOT trying to stir up a religious debate, nor give offense, and I realize the SW universe draws on philosophical concepts that cut across many faiths and cultures. What i am trying to say -- clumsily perhaps! -- is that saying that saving Luke and killing the Emperor "redeems" Anakin, or somehow evens the ledger, doesn't "feel right", if one is truly looking to balance the scales (decades of utter evil washed away by a moment of good, motivated by a desire to save his own son?). But I don't think that this is really what GL was aiming for. Anakin's past evils are not somehow erased, but his return to the Light Side is still something to be celebrated....

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darth-sinister posted:

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Yes. That's exactly it. Anakin can never be reedeemed in the sense of making up for his crimes. He can never right the wrongs. But he can do something that will bring him back to himself, save his son and restore peace to the galaxy. Luke's forgiven his father for all his crimes. Obi-wan and Yoda do so as well, which is why he's able to retain his identity. Not everyone else will forgive him. But they will know that he did the right thing at the very last possible moment, before dying.

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RolandofGilead posted:

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Especially when you think of those poor Younglings trying to stand up to Vader's invasion of the Temple.

Then again, Luke doesn't know Vader killed all the Jedi children and nearly choked his mom to death. I wonder what his reaction will be when the EU finally lets R2 tell him everything?

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AnnLouise posted:

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While not thrilled with it, Anakin's redemption seems to me like the idea of "unearned grace" - he didn't ask for it, but Yoda and Obi-Wan gave it nonetheless. Luke appears to forgive Darth Vader by thinking of his "father" as separate from Darth Vader; Anakin is the name of the "true self" and DV is just a shell. I still find Luke's forgiving harder to understand compared to Yoda/Obi-Wan's.

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AnnLousie posted:

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RolandofGilead posted:

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Especially when you think of those poor Younglings trying to stand up to Vader's invasion of the Temple.

Then again, Luke doesn't know Vader killed all the Jedi children and nearly choked his mom to death. I wonder what his reaction will be when the EU finally lets R2 tell him everything?

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Yes, and when Luke/Leia will get to find out about Padme. How will that be retrofitted into the EU?

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ANAKIN415 posted:

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In my mind there is no need for redemption or to be forgiven. Anakin did what in fact the prophecy said he would do and that is bring balence. The Jedi were way to strong in numbers with archaic views and never evolved within the Force. The Force being all powerful and being all encompassing would you not think it could be capable of retalliating? The Force is evolution of good or evil, soft and hard right or wrong. Its an entity all of it own. It learns it grows it passes its knowledge onward. Anakin is living proof. Emotions and anger and love can all be useful tools if used properly. Something the Jedi never mastered but something the Sith used for evil. While the death of nearly all the Jedi was indeed regretable and sad it was a result of them not heeding to the Force in which they swore themselves too. The Jedi viewed them self so omnipotent that they couldnt see what was right in front of them. With the Force itself it was never a matter of Anakin being forgiven, he did what he was drawn to do. I said this today to someone and I see it applies here, You need to embrace the darkness and let it engulf you. If only to claw and fight your back to be stronger within the light. Anakin was the end of the old ways he proved it didnt work. Luke is beginning of a new order one that will revolved and grow in the future

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SHAD0W-JEDI posted:

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What I do find a BIT troubling -- while YES, acknowledging that ROTS is "just" a movie! -- is the number of folks who will twist and turn and contort themselves trying to excuse, rationalize, or minimize Vader's actions, or the Emperor's.

Vader slaughtered a roomful of kids who turned to him for help. Period. He did it personally, with his own hand. That is monstrous. In every detail.

It is perversely intriguing... on other Threads, we see folks arguing that Mace was wrong to want to kill Sidious, because Sidious had surrendered, was helpless (although many Sidious fans bitterly resent and fight that last bit, granted!... lets just say that he appeared to be helpless, perhaps because he WANTED to), etc... while on THIS Thread some argue that the Jedi Younglings were a threat to Sidious/the Empire and it was thus rational to kill them. The only consistency I see in those two positions is that both excuse Anakin and/or the Emperor for their evil behavior.

There IS no excuse for what Anakin did. He did indeed fall to the Dark Side, and became EVIL. He didn't become "confused", or simply have another value system....*S*...he became EVIL. THis is one case where it simply isn't that complicated! IMHO...

Shadow

As to redemption...tricky thing there. I think it might have been better to say, as some have noted, that Anakin returned from the Dark Side.. and maybe...MAYBE...was forgiven. That is a different matter, and one that I think is perhaps a bit too metaphysical/"religious" to be touched on in depth. Would only note that in, say, the Christitan faith, one can be forgiven for nearly anything with true repentance - not because one DESERVES forgiveness, but because of God's infinite mercy. I think, in some ways, Lucas is suggesting something similar, minus the ties, specifically, to Christianity. I am NOT trying to stir up a religious debate, nor give offense, and I realize the SW universe draws on philosophical concepts that cut across many faiths and cultures. What i am trying to say -- clumsily perhaps! -- is that saying that saving Luke and killing the Emperor "redeems" Anakin, or somehow evens the ledger, doesn't "feel right", if one is truly looking to balance the scales (decades of utter evil washed away by a moment of good, motivated by a desire to save his own son?). But I don't think that this is really what GL was aiming for. Anakin's past evils are not somehow erased, but his return to the Light Side is still something to be celebrated....

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JMN77 posted:

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Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously
helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved
of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether!
I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL.

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