Werebantha posted:JMN77 posted:Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether!I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL. 1) Vader was not a "baddie". A "baddie" is,like, when Snidely Whiplash poses as Dudley Do-Right's horse. DARTH VADER ordered his own daughter to be tortured, and killed his own underlings. He stood by as an ENTIRE PLANET was destroyed (I'm, uh...guessing that that would add up to billions of people (children included)). 2) HEINOUS...learn to spell. It helps those of us that are educated to at least make an attempt to try and take you, and your opinions seriously. 3) yeah, killing children is "EVIL". Are you trying to suggest that destroying an entire planet-full of people and strangling people with your mystically-attuned mind-force ISN'T "EVIL". Adults are children that grew up.
JMN77 posted:Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether!I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL.
darth_frared posted:Werebantha posted:JMN77 posted:Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether!I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL. 1) Vader was not a "baddie". A "baddie" is,like, when Snidely Whiplash poses as Dudley Do-Right's horse. DARTH VADER ordered his own daughter to be tortured, and killed his own underlings. He stood by as an ENTIRE PLANET was destroyed (I'm, uh...guessing that that would add up to billions of people (children included)). 2) HEINOUS...learn to spell. It helps those of us that are educated to at least make an attempt to try and take you, and your opinions seriously. 3) yeah, killing children is "EVIL". Are you trying to suggest that destroying an entire planet-full of people and strangling people with your mystically-attuned mind-force ISN'T "EVIL". Adults are children that grew up. stop being condescending. what is your argument trying to accomplish? it's a plain fact that we feel much less for people being destroyed in an abstract manner (like a planet being wiped out) than we feel for a very tangible idea (like the younglings slaughter) there is no scale that makes one more hideous and more atrocious than the other. it is really just how close we are to the person. and people have a strong reaction to the younglings scene even though we don't even see him do it, it's just conjecture and it's still powerful. it's strong becasue they can easily sympathize with a little kid and maybe they have kids themselves. i think lucas put it there because it easily defies all rationalizations of how anakin just wants to save and be nice. and it also shows the lengths he will go to in order to get what he wants. much like abraham who would kill his own son to obey god. in all the defenses of anakin that i write this one is pretty much beyond excuse but i still know where it's coming from.
Werebantha posted:JMN77 posted:Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether! I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL. 1) Vader was not a "baddie". A "baddie" is,like, when Snidely Whiplash poses as Dudley Do-Right's horse.
JMN77 posted:Yes, in the days before the PT we all knew Vader was a baddie and had previously helped wipe out the Jedi order, but until episode III I doubt few could have concieved of him murdering children. That is just a whole 'nother ball game altogether! I mean killing adult Jedi is one thing and hainus enough, but childre?? That's EVIL.
Werebantha posted:2) HEINOUS...learn to spell. It helps those of us that are educated to at least make an attempt to try and take you, and your opinions seriously.
Werebantha posted:3) yeah, killing children is "EVIL". Are you trying to suggest that destroying an entire planet-full of people and strangling people with your mystically-attuned mind-force ISN'T "EVIL".
Obi_Frans posted:LavaCake posted:It's not that we are surprised he did it. The shock comes from people who defend him for it. Exactly
LavaCake posted:It's not that we are surprised he did it. The shock comes from people who defend him for it.
Darth_Buddy_Lee posted:yankee8255 posted:Because children are relatively innocent and helpless, which is why most, if not all societies, afford them extra protection. Anakin killing them makes it far harder for people, me included, to believe he could be redeemed. He has crossed a line form which there is no turning back. I for one don't think he is ever truly redeemed. Yes he does kill the emperor and bring balance to the force and save his son by sacrificing himself, but this one act does not serve as redemption for all of the atrocities that he committed. Yes he probably knew he would die when he made the decision, but it was still a slightly selfish decision in that he couldn't see his own son die, if it were any other Jedi, he would have just watched them die. In the ROTJ novelization (I believe, although this could be from somewhere else), Yoda is the one that makes it possible for Anakin to become a ghost at the end and see his son. I don't believe this was done due to Anakin being redeemed, but was done for Luke. Luke deserved to see his father as a Jedi. And then Anakin can drift back into the madenning abyss that all Sith are destined for.
yankee8255 posted:Because children are relatively innocent and helpless, which is why most, if not all societies, afford them extra protection. Anakin killing them makes it far harder for people, me included, to believe he could be redeemed. He has crossed a line form which there is no turning back.
darth-sinister posted:voodoopuuduu posted:In the ROTJ novelization (I believe, although this could be from somewhere else), Yoda is the one that makes it possible for Anakin to become a ghost at the end and see his son. I don't believe this was done due to Anakin being redeemed, but was done for Luke. Luke deserved to see his father as a Jedi. And then Anakin can drift back into the madenning abyss that all Sith are destined for. I dont think retaining your identity can be classified as a redemption from hell. The only real purpose to retaining your identity after death is to help the living. Lucas said that Anakin can never redeem himself for all the crimes he's committed. He can never right the wrongs. But he can stop being evil. He can stop the horror. He can take the last bit of goodness and destroy the Dark Lord, which takes his life as well. In the end, he does a final act of good which redeems him in a sense. He becomes a good man again and dies. As I've said, redemption has many definitions. One is to come back from a state of decline. Another is return to one's good favor. Meaning that if someone sees you a certain way, then you should meet those expectations. In the end, that's what happens. Anakin proves Luke is right, by becoming a good man again and saving his son. He does the impossible by the Jedi and Sith standards, which allows Yoda and Obi-wan to help him to retain his identity. Anakin is redeemed by his children. They bring out the best in him.
voodoopuuduu posted:In the ROTJ novelization (I believe, although this could be from somewhere else), Yoda is the one that makes it possible for Anakin to become a ghost at the end and see his son. I don't believe this was done due to Anakin being redeemed, but was done for Luke. Luke deserved to see his father as a Jedi. And then Anakin can drift back into the madenning abyss that all Sith are destined for. I dont think retaining your identity can be classified as a redemption from hell. The only real purpose to retaining your identity after death is to help the living.
The_Chibi_Kiriyama posted:I think this scene in particular is one of the few criticisms of ROTS that I have. Anakin has a short amount of time to kill all of the Jedi in the Temple, rend the Order to shreds and take down the CIS. So logically instead of being shown killing Jedi in a good siege like what Yoda and Obi-Wan were shown doing as they attacked the remaining Temple beseigers, he takes a break to kill the Younglings? Yup, because that's a task that only a Dark Lord of the Sith can undertake. This wasn't David vs. Goliath, this was Ant Colony vs. Human-with-unusually-large-boot. He was one of the best Jedi to ever serve in the order and here he is doing something that a normal footsoldier would have had equal difficulty doing. Cin Drallig? Threatless. Jedi Knights? Pennies in a bucket. Younglings? Most fearsome foes this side of the Galaxy! No fights showing his growing Force adeptness, no saber combat, no commanding scenes of him ordering around the Clones. No, this was all replaced by a paltry attempt to make Vader intensely evil in the span of ten seconds. And then Lucas makes comments about how the Star Wars films are meant for children? This being the same film where people are decapitated, young Padawans are shot to death and a man chokes his pregnant wife unconcious over a stupid one-sided rivalry with his mentor (thus rendering the majority of the plot redundant and useless)? Come on; Lucas could have portrayed this scene with just as much power as the others using the Troopers, and showing Vader wasting his time killing unarmed young Force sensitive children depleted whatever sympathetic feelings I had. It's not like his plot development would have been grievously hindered had he not done it. I personally laughed my butt off when I saw him burn to a crisp. I think Lucas wanted me to feel sorry, but by this time he already Force Choked Padme and my patience with his stupidity had grown thin. Thumbs way down on the execution and relevancy of this scene.
