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Topic:
Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/8/06 11:52pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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Anakin gains in strength by using the Dark Side. The more he embraces the Dark Side, the more he uses his anger and hate, the stronger he can become through it. It isn't about showing an impressive display of Force skills. It's about giving in to your negative emotions and using them to fuel said emotions, thus increasing their connection to the Force. Which in turn makes it easier for Anakin to keep using the Dark Side to keep that power and increase it. It's like a drug. You take it the first time and you get a 'good rush'. Well, you want to keep having that same euphoric (sp) feeling. So how do you keep that momentum going? You keep doing it over and over until you quit or are six feet under. Anakin has to keep killing in cold blood, using his anger and hate to become more powerful. When he kills the Jedi, he is only halfway there. Once he reaches Mustafar, he unleashes all that pent-up on the Separatist Council. He's so into the Dark Side that his eyes change color. The hate is just bursting at the seams.
The whole point is to show how evil he is. It's a lesson to us. We must not give into our own dark side, or else we will be lost like Anakin is. Wars do not make one great. Not for Yoda. Not for Obi-wan. Not for Luke. Not for Palpatine. And most certainly not for Vader.
Children, as mentioned, are considered innocent in the eyes of many. Lucas wanted to show the death of innocence and Vader walking into the Council chambers to slaughter a group of Younglings was the ultimate death knell. "Anakin's Betrayal" and the opening moments of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from the score highlight this. Especially with the latter which begins with the choir singing in a low, sad tone. Designed to be haunting and disturbing, compared to the slaughter and the birth of the Empire segments.
ROTS is the fall of Anakin from grace. From good to evil. The revenge is from Darth Sidious who is leading the Sith into a new age.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mastersith69
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 6:14am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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i think it was necessary to show him kill some kids, it only took the film to the next level for us viewing it.
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 6:45am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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>>>> I think Lucas wanted me to feel sorry
What makes you think that, Kiriyama?
-JR 
-----signature-----
"Love is the answer to the darkness." 
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 10:47am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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But that's not the point I wanted to make. The scene diminished his persona by making it seem that he had somehow advanced into the Dark Side irrevocably by killing the Younglings, when in fact he had been lured in way in advance. That was 10 seconds that could have been better allocated showing a clearer shot of his fight with Cin Drallig or a miscellaneous group of Jedi.
it's more of a cinematic device: he kills his own innocence and his inner kid type of thing.
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illegalise stupidity.
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Jokerisdaking
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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LegoDroid posted:
Because it pretty much killed the story.
This scene is so pivotal to where the whole story behind ROTC falls apart. It just isn't believable. Now you can say whay you will about the influence of the dark side of the force and how it could twist someone who was otherwise good into someone who was mostly evil (can't be pure evil because as we all know, "There is still good in him...."). I think what I struggled with when watching this film was that the whole transformation from Anakin to Vader took all of about an hour. One hour he's going to turn in Palpatine to the Jedi council, the next he's slaughtering younglings. It just didn't jive. GL worked very hard to lay out exactly why he had to do this. <Saving Padme's life> requires <Strength in the Dark Side> therefore <kill lots of Jedi>. It just isn't believable. It would have made more sense to me if Palpatine had started him off slowly. Killing a few Jedi here, a few Jedi there. Maybe over the space of a couple of months. Something like a slow slide into madness instead of a sudden reversal. Then as the Dark Side truly takes over, then start slaughtering children. Of course, GL has set in his mind that the events of Vader's transformation from Anakin to suited Vader take all of about 48 hours. Why? Why couldn't it have been stretched out? Why does this disappoint me? Because I am a huge fan of character development and plot. Here, there was almost none. Anakin did not become Vader. Anakin disappeared and Vader took his place. Certainly fits in with Obi-wan's lie to Like in ANH. Still, it doesn't make any sense. Where did this evil Vader come from? Why does he have remorse about helping to kill Mace, but an hour later, is slaughtering children? Where is the CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT? Where are the incremental steps along the way?
If the scene could have been improved, he could have had Vader show even a hint of trepidation. Maybe something to demonstrate how there is "still good in him," right before the Dark Side reasserts itself. In other words, SHOW the transformation.
Ok, rant over. Flame away.
-LegoDroid
Falling to the DS does not have to be a subtle fall and suddenly killing children is not OOC for Vader at that stage. AOTC clones perfectly illustrates this, Anakin is not the sort of person to just summarily kill women and children, but he is so enraged by the death of his mother that his anger makes him touch the DS and it leads him into killing the tuskens and that was just a fluke sojourn into the dark where he just barely touches it. During the raid on the Jedi temple he is actively and conciously using the dark side. Remember this is the real (Lucas) version of the DS and not this crappy EU theory where its just a mental decline.
-----signature-----
Danger, I laugh in the face of danger, then I hide until it goes away.
Tarkin, not Vader, destroyed Alderaan.
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The_Chibi_Kiriyama
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 10:30pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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OBIWAN-JR posted:
>>>> I think Lucas wanted me to feel sorry
What makes you think that, Kiriyama?
-JR
Because Lucas said that the one thing he wanted to complete about the saga was how the powerful man in black was really in a "pathetic" fallen state of his true self the entire time by showing us that he does have good in him. Killing children to justify saving his future family doesn't show this, wastes time better spent showing something else, and depletes my patience for an overdeveloped character.
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Notice my name? Yeah, I'm obsessed with something other than Star Wars-
BATTLE ROYALE!
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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It works. He was so desperate to save his family from certain death, that he contributes to the destruction of his family. He's pathetic because all he had to do is listen to Yoda and not do a damn thing, other than train himself to let go of your fears. He had everything. A wife. Two children on the way. He was a Jedi Knight and got to sit on the Council. He was a very publically well known hero. He had it all and he threw it away, because he got too greedy. Now his wife is dead. His children are in hiding. He has killed almost all the Jedi. And now he's trapped, both figuratively and literally. He is trapped in this suit, with his limbs gone and his body burnt. His power is diminished and he is loyal to a man that he hates with a passion.
That is by definition, pathetic.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 1:02am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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>>>> Because Lucas said that the one thing he wanted to complete about the saga was how the powerful man in black was really in a "pathetic" fallen state of his true self the entire time by showing us that he does have good in him. Killing children to justify saving his future family doesn't show this, wastes time better spent showing something else, and depletes my patience for an overdeveloped character.
You see, I disagree that he wanted us to feel sorry for Anakin in ROTS. The fact that he changed the immolation scene so that Anakin does not call out for help to Obi-Wan, is a big reason behind my thinking here. Lucas is quoted in The Making of Revenge of the Sith as saying that he didn't want Anakin to be redeemable at that point in the Saga.
So whilst it may well have been there in the story originally, I don't think that it is there now.
What I think George wants to show us with Anakin, is just how easy it is to do the wrong thing when we are presented with difficult choices in life. That it is harder to do the right thing. That once you take that first small step towards greed and evil, the subsequent steps become easier, and easier.
For me, the scene with the younglings is so powerful because it shows us just how far Anakin has fallen, from the innocent boy that we first met on Tatooine in TPM.
I really love the symbolism that George puts into this scene for two reasons.
Firstly, it takes place in the Council Chamber, where Anakin was first introduced to the rest of his new Jedi 'family'. This was the place where an emboldened Qui-Gon stood with the young Anakin and told the Council:
"He is the Chosen One. You must see it."
-- Qui-Gon Jinn, The Phantom Menace, 1999
And now, this is the place where Anakin truly turns his back on that mantle.
But most symbolically, the youngling who steps forward to ask Anakin what they must do, looks SO strikingly similar to the young Anakin we saw in TPM.
When Anakin ignites that Saber in response to that innocent little boy, he is about to attack everything that he ever stood for, and everything that he ever could have been.
He is about to go to war on himself.
-JR
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"Love is the answer to the darkness."
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yoshifett
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:45am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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mastersith69 posted:
i think it was necessary to show him kill some kids, it only took the film to the next level for us viewing it.
Often it is much more effective NOT to show something. Leaving it to the imagination makes it much more powerful (given you have an imagination). Would you really have wanted to see Anakin fighting...slaughtering...the younglings? Picture it in your mind. Does it seem dramatic? I'm not sure how it could have been pulled off so that it's as effective as it already is, considering we're still talking about how shocked people were by the implication. I think a room full of kids running around getting chopped by Anakin might have looked unintentionally humorous. (Perhaps I think it would have been funny because I'm a teacher?  )
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:52am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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The movie would've been given an NC-17 had Lucas opted to show the Younglings being sliced up by Vader. That's why we get blaster shots, which have no blood. And we get the implication of Vader killing them. Thus Lucas walks away with a mere PG-13.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mastersith69
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 1:06pm
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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well i am not saying that he needed to show us anakin really killing the kids but simply what we saw was fine enough. but i think though it would of been a nice touch though to show anakin killing older jedi and even masters if they were any on coruscant still. it would of show how powerful his anger had made him become, and give meaning to when sidous say "I can feel your anger it makes you strong gives you focus"it would of show how powerful his anger had made him become, and give meaning to when sidous say "I can feel your anger it makes you strong gives you focus"
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 12:00am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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That's what happens when a Jedi turns to the Dark Side. Using their anger and hate makes them strong and gives them focus. Vader has anger and hate, which he uses in the Temple. And then he really kicks it up a notch on Mustafar.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Leonard_Shelby
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 12:30am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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darthOB1 posted:
When I took my wife to see the movie, afterwards she said she hated this movie so bad she would never watch it again. Why? "Because it was soooo violent and he killed little children!"
I tried to reason with her about the violence part. I asked her to expalin how it was she though this PG13 movie was so much more violent than a movie she loved, Gladiator that was rated R.
Simple, she siad "because they didn't kill little kids"
So even though it was not shown it was the idea that made it much worse than that of the bloody, loss of limbs scenes that were shown in the other movie.
Go figure.
Your wife must've missed the part in Gladiator where the little boy was dead and hanging from a tree.
In relation to the topic:
I don't know why people get so up in arms about this either. He was given a job to do: Exterminate the Jedi. Discerning between them was not an option. Age didn't matter. Those little kids would eventually grow up to challenge the rule of the Emperor, so it was a necessary evil.
And, as has been said, murder is murder. Age is irrelevant. It is a despicable atrocity no matter how old the victim is.
Also, as George Carlin says, "There are no innocent victims. If you're born into this world, you're guilty. End of story, next case. Next. ****ing. Case."
-----signature-----
Blue Yoda Society: Supreme Chancellor || Master to ApolloSmileGirl
Don't run your mouth about loyalty if you know nothing about it.
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gnostic_solo
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 1:23am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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A good man would have shown remorse ,more inner conflict,would not have been capable of killing unarmed kids so easily,especialy when they think you are coming to halp them.I can only see someone who is very weak and prob not to intelligent do that at that moment.an evil hero would prob have given these kids the chance to grow up and face him when they were ready,he would kill them later,cause they were not a threat to the empire,not now and not in the future,only luke was cause he could bring that one light element that was still in him to the surface and thus make him in a way one with the force for that single element.
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 1:38am
Subject:
RE: Why are people so shocked he killed the Younglings?
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i don't think he really had time and space to make that decision.
and he *is* conflicted over it. not sure what movie you've seen.
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illegalise stupidity.
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