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Topic:
Was Palpatine in-love with Anakin's Power?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 11:28am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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TheCRZA posted:
Yoda did help him. He told him to let go of his fears.
That's not help, Sin, that's dogma.
Instead of showing Anakin how, or even training him how
in all those years, Yoda just told him to let go.
It was all fortune-cookie, lip-service to the code.
That's not help.
Obi-wan has been training him for thirteen years on how to let go of his fears. Every Jedi must learn to let go of their fears or else they will be controlled by them. It's not dogma. It's a fact of life. If you spent your whole life being afraid of your own shadow, you'd be useless. If you spent your whole life being afraid to do something, you'd never be able to rise above your station in life.
Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to do this. Anakin already knows how to do it. He just takes the quick and easy path. He abandons all common sense and reasoning, because it's too hard to do it the other way. Life is never easy. Qui-gon told him that being a Jedi is a hard life. Obi-wan has done his best to teach Anakin.
TheCRZA posted:
His fears drive him to 'kill' her.
His fears drive him to turn on her.
She dies because she can't handle it
and she can't adapt to life with the
Anakin she was too blind to see
and with the Republic gone.
Anakin caused her death, I'll grant you,
but saying he killed her is sort of stretching it.
Why do you think is spelt it as 'kill' her? Anakin lets his fears control him and that is what Yoda warned him about. This has nothing to do with supposed dogma. It is a fact of life. Anakin took the chicken **** way out, rather than being a man and dealing with his problems as an adult. Not as a petulant (sp) child who throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way.
Dartk_Disciple posted:
On Anakin not caring about what Padme wanted, well he was written that way I guess, in the not listening dept, GL deliberately makes Anakin the example of bad attachment. This is SW nonetheless and Anakin's a Force user, everything comes back to that being the answer for a Jedi, and the same goes for Anakin. He thought he could turn to the Force for help, rather than rely on the sensible advice of an OB/GYN, but that would have made for a pedestrian story line, and as I said before, this is SW, its full of characters that can do all sorts of things and events happen that in RL would be daft and unbelievable. But there you have it, Anakin thinks Padme's life is in danger and unfortunately, through the subtle manipulations and conversations with palps, Anakin thinks the dark side is the answer to his problem.
I get that. What I'm saying is people think that what Anakin wanted to do in the beginning was all sweet and noble. It wasn't. It was selfish. Anakin may have grown up in certain areas, but in many ways, he's still a child. He thinks that power will help him, but it won't. The Force can help him, but only by listening to it and not his emotions.
Dark_Disciple posted:
On the Han and Leia issue, well Han wouldn't have been able to do a thing about Leia if she'd chosen to walk away, she was a tough campaigner, Han knew a smart woman when he saw one, plus, her life at that point was not being threatened, so far as he could judge, and he was no Jedi either. No chance to get consumed by the dark side, he's no Force user. The contexts of the two situations are so disimilar as well that it's really hard to even see them as comparisons to throw up as examples of possessive vs compassionate love.
But even though the Dark Side is something the Jedi face on a daily basis and the Sith deal in it, it exists in the non-Force users as well. Greed, fear, hate, anger, possessiveness, obsessiveness and jealously. They're not exclusive to the Dark Side of the Force. Watto, Jabba, the Fetts, everyone in the Separatist Council. They're all examples of greed. They're motivated by greed to do what they do. Watto would only deal in money that had real value and not Republic credits. He would gamble. Jabba only cared about getting Glitterism and being paid back for the shipment that Han lost. Jango Fett will work for whoever pays him the most, regardless of any personal feelings. Boba Fett was concerned about Han's life, because he's worth a lot more alive than dead. The Separatist Council cared only about keeping their monopolies intact, in light of the new taxation laws, which would destroy everything they've worked hard for.
Han is no different. In the beginning, he only cares about money and his own back end. He only fought with Luke and Leia because it would be profitable. He changes his mind after a while and this is why he becomes a better man. Han is also subject to anger, just like anyone else. Same with jealously. Look at his reaction when he sees Leia crying after Luke leaves. She could talk to Luke, but she won't talk to him. He gets upset and jealous at Luke. But he lets go of these feelings. It would be very easy for Han to become possessive and obsessive towards Leia. You don't need the Force, much less the Dark Side, to have these kinds of negative emotions. They exist in all people. Lucas always says that Anakin and Padme's relationship was wrong and forebidden. He never once says that about Han and Leia. Take the Force out and you can see the emotional differences between the two couples.
Finally, let's keep on topic here and not go into juvenile posts about dropping the soap.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
1/9/06 1:20pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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*Sidious to Anakin*= "Goooood...I can feel your Anu.... whoops  ......I mean anger." 
-----signature-----
-you want answers?  -I think I'm entitled. -You want answers?  -I want the truth!!  -YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!  http://boards.outerrimsieges.com/
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TheCRZA
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to do this.
Yes, that's sort of my whole point.
Yoda tells him to train himself to do this.
And why?
Because no one else ever did.
Here you have the chosen one, a fully trained (supposedly)
Jedi knight and he still doesn't get a basic tenet of Jedi
morality? No attachments... control your emotions?
Train yourself?
That, is why they failed.
-----signature-----
"When I give food to the poor,
I am a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food,
I am a communist."
-Hélder Câmara
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Dezdmona
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 8:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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TheCRZA posted:
Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to do this.
Yes, that's sort of my whole point.
Yoda tells him to train himself to do this.
And why?
Because no one else ever did.
Here you have the chosen one, a fully trained (supposedly)
Jedi knight and he still doesn't get a basic tenet of Jedi
morality? No attachments... control your emotions?
Train yourself?
That, is why they failed.
Ultimately yes, CRZA.
No one else can control Anakin's behavior but himself.
Ultimately everyone must learn internal self-control.
Anakin failed himself.
-----signature-----
Book: It's not about… making sense.
It's about believing in something.
And letting that belief be real enough to change your life.
It's about faith.
You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you.
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AnakinSucks
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 9:10pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Bah, Humbug.
The emperor did not love Ani. He just wanted to use him as a tool.
And that is exactly what he did.
Even if Vader did not get badly beaten up by Oni-wan, the emperor still would not have given him all of his knowledge.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Dezdmona posted:
TheCRZA posted:
Yoda tells Anakin to train himself to do this.
Yes, that's sort of my whole point.
Yoda tells him to train himself to do this.
And why?
Because no one else ever did.
Here you have the chosen one, a fully trained (supposedly)
Jedi knight and he still doesn't get a basic tenet of Jedi
morality? No attachments... control your emotions?
Train yourself?
That, is why they failed.
Ultimately yes, CRZA.
No one else can control Anakin's behavior but himself.
Ultimately everyone must learn internal self-control.
Anakin failed himself.
Too true and that is the entire arc of his character in the PT. He couldn't control himself. He had the tools necessary, but he never applied himself. The Council felt that he was ready after Praestylin and Obi-wan agreed. As Praestylin, Jabim, Kamino, Xagobah, Yavin IV and Saluemaci (sp) have proven, he wasn't ready. When Yoda realizes this, he warns Anakin to get his **** together.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 2:27am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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that idea of teaching is really medieval.
he has techniques but cannot apply himself? how about applying the teaching to him?
and what kind of funny idea is it of helping people when all you do is tell them to get their *** together?
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illegalise stupidity.
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Dezdmona
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 7:26am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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darth_frared posted:
that idea of teaching is really medieval.
he has techniques but cannot apply himself? how about applying the teaching to him?
and what kind of funny idea is it of helping people when all you do is tell them to get their *** together?
But frared, OB1 had been mentoring him daily for ~13 years, and Shmi for the 9-10 years before that.
For the most part, a great majority of (average) people are able to achieve internal self-control, make rational and logical decisions and take responsibility for their own actions (without blaming others) by the time they are 23.
This is not a "medieval" concept.
Anakin would not slow down long enough to "think".
"Always on the move." ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS
-----signature-----
Book: It's not about… making sense.
It's about believing in something.
And letting that belief be real enough to change your life.
It's about faith.
You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you.
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JMN77
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 7:33am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Dezdmona posted:
darth_frared posted:
that idea of teaching is really medieval.
he has techniques but cannot apply himself? how about applying the teaching to him?
and what kind of funny idea is it of helping people when all you do is tell them to get their *** together?
But frared, OB1 had been mentoring him daily for ~13 years, and Shmi for the 9-10 years before that.
For the most part, a great majority of (average) people are able to achieve internal self-control, make rational and logical decisions and take responsibility for their own actions (without blaming others) by the time they are 23.
This is not a "medieval" concept.
Anakin would not slow down long enough to "think".
"Always on the move." ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS
I've always put more of the resposability on the Jedi for Anakin's
failure.... but you and CRZA have made me look at this differently!
And it's so simple and so true. Anakin should have been able to
learn through (what I still sorda see as) ellusive, riddle like
teachings.
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Hairless_Ewok
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 9:02am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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And notice how Sidious moans like he's having an orgasm when Anakin first bows before him and pledges his allegiance
"oooooooooooooh yeessssssssss! mmmmmmmmmmm the force is STRONG with you!!!!"
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mjerome3
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 9:12am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Hairless_Ewok posted:
And notice how Sidious moans like he's having an orgasm when Anakin first bows before him and pledges his allegiance
"oooooooooooooh yeessssssssss! mmmmmmmmmmm the force is STRONG with you!!!!"
-----signature-----
May the Force be with you- Luke Skywalker
May the Force be with you- Han Solo
May the Force be with you- Qui-Gon Jinn
May the Force be with you- Anakin Skywalker
The Force will be with you...always- Obi-Wan Kenobi
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 9:53am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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Dezdmona posted:
darth_frared posted:
that idea of teaching is really medieval.
he has techniques but cannot apply himself? how about applying the teaching to him?
and what kind of funny idea is it of helping people when all you do is tell them to get their *** together?
But frared, OB1 had been mentoring him daily for ~13 years, and Shmi for the 9-10 years before that.
For the most part, a great majority of (average) people are able to achieve internal self-control, make rational and logical decisions and take responsibility for their own actions (without blaming others) by the time they are 23.
This is not a "medieval" concept.
Anakin would not slow down long enough to "think".
"Always on the move." ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS
well, i continue to see it differently.
if they *told* him for 13 years and he didn't *learn* it, then obviously the way they teach is inappropriate (which is the case).
i didn't mean that helping people to become responsible adults is medieval, lord, no, i mean just giving one-size-fits-all fortune cookie advice and at the same time expecting that it will do each and every situation justice is medieval.
what palps does is making him think and giving him ideas. the jedi lecture. they say, you gotta do this and that in order to get this and that result. that's sort of deductive, what palps does is inductive. he lets him get there himself, which is much more effective. he is dropping hints and succeeds. obi-wan and yoda say, do this and that will happen and that's no good to someone who has a problem with authority. it just won't work.
i think what you put forward is saying, the jedi never stood a chance against anakin's stubbornness and i say they didn't try because they were arrogant enough to think their methods will succeed no matter what. (that's not agood teaching attitude, might i add)
there's more to this and i don't want to derail this thread much more...
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illegalise stupidity.
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JMN77
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 11:22am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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darth_frared posted:
i don't want to derail this thread much more...
You don't want to derail THIS thread??
Derailment would be an improvment.
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http://boards.outerrimsieges.com/ Release the Kracken..... GET THE SACRIFICE ON!
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 11:40am
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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What Palpatine did was play up Anakin's ego and told him that his thoughts and feelings were right. He was doing the wrong thing by Anakin, because what he was telling him is wrong for a Jedi. Much less for most people. Anakin could've adapted to it, but having Palpatine bending his ear for so many years hurt him. Note that Luke has the Lars and his Masters bending his ear, which kept the Sith from getting him to turn. This is the crux of the matter. Anakin has been seduced by the Dark Side for thirteen years. He never had a chance, because he was receiving contradictory teachings. It's like in families who have parents that cannot agree on how to raise their kids. One will be lax and the other will be strict. And when the child gets in trouble, they'll follow the laxed parent's point of view over the strict one. Whereas both parents being in agreement with how the child should be raised, results in a more unified front and that helps the child.
In application to Anakin, he's got Obi-wan teaching him how to be a Jedi. But then you have Palpatine teaching him how to be a Sith. Two different disciplines that will cause confusion for Anakin. Luke only had the teachings of the Jedi to keep him on the straight and narrow. Anakin was doing fine, save for brooding about it, when Palpatine brought up Darth Plagueis. Because he gave him what could be false hope, it made the task of joining Palpatine that much easier. You take Palpatine out of the equation and Anakin would have no choice but to let go of his fears.
Yoda also told Anakin to be careful when sensing the future. That it is always in motion. This is true as we've seen throughout the Saga.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 12:28pm
Subject:
RE: Was Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin?
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With the addition of the PT to the saga, the 'hero' archetype is clearly Anakin. Joseph Campbell, GL's philosophical mentor, state's that the hero is not merely an individual, but an entire culture or, in the case of SW, what Campbell calls a 'mono-culture,' which is the common themes meaningful to all of us.
But Anakin, in the time-honored mythological way, first falls hard before reclaiming his hero status once and for all and moving on to 'something or someplace better.' In Campbell's words, Anakin finally "finds his bliss when he saves his son and kills Palpatine. Until that point Anakin was a troubled and lost soul. He always did what others expected of him. He was a slave, freed by QGJ, or from another point of view, 'purchased' into the Jedi order through a simple wager. All the while, the only thing close to the 'bliss' Anakin wanted and needed came from Padme (after Shmi dies, that is). Anakin knows almost at the moment he again sets eyes upon her in AOTC that his destiny is eternally tied to her.
Anakin wants a family. He wants love. He seeks love. He finds love with Padme. When he looses Padme, and their 'child' along with her, all he ever wanted instantly vanishes because the hero has failed. All that he has left is . . . . .
what Palpatine offers him. Palpatine, unlike Anakin, has achieved his bliss. Through deception and manipulation he convinced Anakin that becoming a Sith would let him 'find his bliss.' As Darth Sidious, using his new apprentice Darth Vader, Palpatine exacted gleeful (or 'blissful') 'revenge' upon the Jedi order. As Emperor he then achieved "unlimited power" He now owned the shell of what was once known as Anakin Skywalker and controlled every life in the known galaxy. Anakin delivered to Darth Sidious his bliss, and so Sidious coveted Anakin in return, until a new young Skywalker steps onto the stage. This Skywalker too seeks his bliss, a bliss that comes full circle as he quests to enter the Jedi order that his very own father rejected. Man, GL did a great job tying all of this together in a highly entertaining manner.
So, in light of the above, is Palpatine 'in-love' with Anakin? Not in the meaning most of us mean with those words. 'In-bliss' would be a better term -- a state of total mental and psychological blissfulness in Campbell's context, but in a completely evil kind of way.
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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