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Topic:
How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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JediMasterGaraceDane
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 12:48pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Mandalorian-Jedi posted:
JediMasterGaraceDane posted:
According to a site I can't remember(it was very accurate and wasnt a EU site either), Yoda has less midiclorians then Anakin and Sidious. But with hundreds of years of training, Yoda was able to overcome that midiclorian count and be on par with Sidious.
That is www.supershadow.com
You were deceived by an idiot.
I feel thatI then must contradict myself to an extent. Ok then maybe I was decieved by supershadow.com, but in the movie everyone knows that Vader is more powerful then either Yoda and Palps. No one can deny that. And from what we saw of the fight excluding Yoda's "Failed, I have," quote Yoda and Palps were EVEN and possibly Yoda had the upper edge in the fight at the end. Which leads me to my next point:
r8hitman posted:
lighteninggun posted:
Yoda failed the battle, but after 20 years he won the war, due to Anakin's turn. The night of the Jedi purge, he was bested by Sidious. Period. He ran away in defeat. His gooal was to destroy Sidious. Did he? His plan was to have Vader destroyed. Did he? Poor little green guy got beat that night.
If that's what you saw then that's just what you saw...."I" saw Yoda leaving because he had one opportunity to destroy Sidious and he didnt do it.
Going back and having to "climb" all the way back up to catch Sidious would have taken an extremely looooong time, and only a fool would think he had that much time to spare.
If you go to kill the president and make it into his office and something happens (an explosion) and you end up all the way outside on the white house front lawn, do you really think you'll still have time to get back into the white house again and make it back to the presidents office?? 
You wouldnt go back. But not because the president "whupped your a**" and made you run, but you just dont have that kind of time to spare....if you didnt do it then, then your best option is to retreat until you can infiltrate the office again on another day using a different method.
Sidious did not "beat" Yoda into a retreat...come to think of it "he" was the one running the entire fight, and he only hit Yoda once and that's when they were in the office.
I must say I agree mostly with r8hitman. But I must say that Yoda's plan that day DID fail. Both Sith survived and Both jedi went into hiding. Yoda only lost because time was not on his side. He would have gotten back up and started fighting but he lost his lightsaber, and clones were more then likely entering the Senate building. Yoda decided to flee in order for him to come back in and destroy Sids later. Of course that never came to be. Because he didnt see anytime in the future to where he could come back and destroy the Sith so he chose exile. SO if you count that as a "whupped Yoda's a**" or a Yoda defeat then go for it. But in all reality Yoda put the fight into a stalemate, or you can look at it like i did to where Yoda held the advantage toward the end of the fight. Sorry if this is a little off topic.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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How do you know it's "impossible for a jedi to use lightning"?? It doesnt make any sense that a jedi doesnt "know how" to use the lightning, the thing about it is that it requires you to use certain emotions that the jedi dont or are not supposed to use, but that doesnt mean they dont know how.
If force lightning requires certain emotions that the Jedi don't have, than you'll never see a Jedi using it. The power can only be developed through the dark side. Shooting lightning would be a more effective defense than simply blocking it. Yoda doesn't know how to generate lightning because he hasn't been trained to use the dark side and harness his hate into electrical energy. If we never see a Jedi using lightning, we can assume that they can't. Lucas calls it "Sith lightning", after all.
Blocking lightning doesn't necessarily require that you've seen it before. Jedi probably know how to block Force attacks in general, especially ones as wise as Yoda. Blocking Dooku's weak and pathetic lightning might not be something that requires a lot of practice. The ROTJ novel even claims that Luke attempts to block the Emperor's lightning, even though he's never seen it before and was surprised.
OK so are you saying that Yoda the little green puppet creates his own dialogue? raised_brow
Lucas wrote this stuff, and maybe he's changed his stance on certain issues (wouldnt be the first time) or maybe you need to reevaluate what Lucas meant when he said "the darkside is stronger" wink ....just because the darkside is stronger in one sense, doesnt mean that it's stronger as a whole. wink
Yoda's point of view isn't necessarily the same as Lucas'. Lucas obviously thinks that the dark side is stronger. Do you think its possible for Yoda to be wrong or to be lying? This would prevent contradicting Lucas' statement. Characters don't always know as much about the story as the author does.
"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side" also came out of the mouth of a character that Lucas created. The difference between the Emperor and Yoda is that Lucas supports the Emperor's point of view. The creator's statements always take precedence over a character's opinion.
The dark side is either stronger or it isnt'. If its stronger in one sense, the its stronger. Lucas said the dark side is more powerful, so that negates the possibility of the two sides being equal.
I don't think Lucas changed his mind about the dark side at all. ROTJ shows the superiority of the dark side, more than any other movie. The Emperor completely overpowers Luke with force lightning, a power that we've never seen the Jedi use. This made people think the Emperor is the most powerful force user because he could dominate Luke so easily.
I'm unaware of Lucas changing his stance on any issues. If Lucas could simply change his mind about the story, then we could never be sure about anything. The dark side must be stronger if Lucas says that it is.
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
How do you know it's "impossible for a jedi to use lightning"?? It doesnt make any sense that a jedi doesnt "know how" to use the lightning, the thing about it is that it requires you to use certain emotions that the jedi dont or are not supposed to use, but that doesnt mean they dont know how.
If force lightning requires certain emotions that the Jedi don't have, than you'll never see a Jedi using it.
Does that mean that they cant use it or just dont use it??
The power can only be developed through the dark side. Shooting lightning would be a more effective defense than simply blocking it. Yoda doesn't know how to generate lightning because he hasn't been trained to use the dark side and harness his hate into electrical energy. If we never see a Jedi using lightning, we can assume that they can't. Lucas calls it "Sith lightning", after all.
So since we never see a jedi use the restroom, then it's safe to assume that they cant. 
Blocking lightning doesn't necessarily require that you've seen it before. Jedi probably know how to block Force attacks in general, especially ones as wise as Yoda. Blocking Dooku's weak and pathetic lightning might not be something that requires a lot of practice. The ROTJ novel even claims that Luke attempts to block the Emperor's lightning, even though he's never seen it before and was surprised.
 Did Yoda even act surprised when he saw Dooku's lightning, or did it seem like something that he had seen before?? Especially since he told his old apprentice "much to learn...you still have".
OK so are you saying that Yoda the little green puppet creates his own dialogue? raised_brow
Lucas wrote this stuff, and maybe he's changed his stance on certain issues (wouldnt be the first time) or maybe you need to reevaluate what Lucas meant when he said "the darkside is stronger" wink ....just because the darkside is stronger in one sense, doesnt mean that it's stronger as a whole. wink
Yoda's point of view isn't necessarily the same as Lucas'. Lucas obviously thinks that the dark side is stronger. Do you think its possible for Yoda to be wrong or to be lying?
Why does everybody have to "lie" all the time??? This is the weakest excuse I've heard about these movies. Yoda's not lying to Luke...he's telling him the truth. Maybe the darkside is more powerful when it comes to fighting or selfish needs, but the lightside of the force has just as much to offer as the darkside if your patient and you can wait. Maybe when it comes to "raw power" the darkside might be more powerful, but overall they are probably equal.
This would prevent contradicting Lucas' statement. Characters don't always know as much about the story as the author does.
"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side" also came out of the mouth of a character that Lucas created. The difference between the Emperor and Yoda is that Lucas supports the Emperor's point of view. The creator's statements always take precedence over a character's opinion.
The dark side is either stronger or it isnt'. If its stronger in one sense, the its stronger.
 NO....I dont think so. If George Foreman is stronger than Brett Favre "physically" does that mean that he's stronger than him emotionally??
I don't think Lucas changed his mind about the dark side at all. ROTJ shows the superiority of the dark side, more than any other movie. The Emperor completely overpowers Luke with force lightning, a power that we've never seen the Jedi use. This made people think the Emperor is the most powerful force user because he could dominate Luke so easily.
I'm unaware of Lucas changing his stance on any issues.
Uhhh....whatever you say. 
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 2:15pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
Good points all around farrelg. Why would Yoda tell Luke that the darkside was stronger anyway? It wouldn't have been very helpful in convincing Luke to face Vader and the Emperor.
Thank you, yoshifett. I agree that telling someone as young and impressionable as Luke that the dark side is stronger could spell disaster. Luke might wonder why he's using the weaker side of the Force, and how he has a chance against people who automatically have a physical advantage over him.
We know that the Jedi are fond of telling lies that protect Luke or truths "from a certain point of view". This wouldn't be the first time Luke has been told something that isn't 100% accurate.
The jedi do not lie, When they say something to some one it is from there point of view. Only the sith lie, Yoda said it in episode 2. 
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yoshifett
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Icestar63 posted:
The jedi do not lie, When they say something to some one it is from there point of view. Only the sith lie, Yoda said it in episode 2.
The Jedi don't get married either...or attempt to kill unarmed prisoners *cough*Mace*cough*
But anyway, the Jedi do have a tendency to tell the truth...from a certain point of view... 
Obi-Wan told plenty of these "truths" - I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda's response about the dark side is from a certain point of view as well...
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 5:02pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Does that mean that they cant use it or just dont use it??
It means that as Jedi, they don't know how to generate force lightning. To learn this power, they would have to study the dark side. This is why Lucas calls it "Sith lightning".
So since we never see a jedi use the restroom, then it's safe to assume that they cant.
That's a different scenario. There's no reason to show a Jedi going to the bathroom. However, we do see fight scenes. Jedi don't use lightning, but the Sith do. Obviously, its exclusively a dark side power. Even Anakin didn't know how to use lightning immediately after turning to the dark side. Maul didn't know how to use it either. Its something that has to be developed by focusing your anger into electrical energy.
It would be more effective to shoot lightning as a defense than to simply block lightning. An unarmed Jedi would be on equal grounds with the Emperor if he knew how to use lightning. However, the Jedi don't know how to use lightning and can't do much without a lightsaber. The Emperor can still shoot lightning when he's unarmed, as he proved with Luke.
Did Yoda even act surprised when he saw Dooku's lightning, or did it seem like something that he had seen before?? Especially since he told his old apprentice "much to learn...you still have".
That doesn't mean Yoda can use lightning. He's old enough to know that the Force can accomplish many seemingly impossible feats. Luke seems surprised when he's attacked with lightning.
Why does everybody have to "lie" all the time??? This is the weakest excuse I've heard about these movies. Yoda's not lying to Luke...he's telling him the truth. Maybe the darkside is more powerful when it comes to fighting or selfish needs, but the lightside of the force has just as much to offer as the darkside if your patient and you can wait. Maybe when it comes to "raw power" the darkside might be more powerful, but overall they are probably equal.
If you take Yoda's words at face value, why don't you believe the Emperor's words? He claims that feeble Jedi skills are no match for the power of the dark side. Apparantly he has a different point of view than Yoda. Only one of them can be right. The Emperor is correct because Lucas supports his opinion about the Force. Characters don't always know as much as the creator. Lucas' statement about the Force overrides anything that Yoda says.
Why do you think the notion of Yoda lying is a weak excuse? The Jedi have withheld the truth on other occasions for Luke's benefit, such as his father's identity. Yoda is obviously wrong or lying because Lucas contradicts his words about the nature of the Force.
The reason why Lucas says the dark side is stronger is because it has more "raw power", as you pointed out. Having more raw power makes you more powerful. Lucas wrote the story, so he knows everything about the Force. Whichever side he says is stronger is definitely stronger.
Obi-Wan told plenty of these "truths" - I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda's response about the dark side is from a certain point of view as well...
Absolutely. The Jedi don't always tell the whole truth if they think its going to be detrimental.
NO....I dont think so. If George Foreman is stronger than Brett Favre "physically" does that mean that he's stronger than him emotionally??
Lucas is talking about strength in terms of power, not emotions.
Uhhh....whatever you say.
By the time the third film was finished, Luke and Leia were related. It doesn't matter if he planned it out from the beginning. The saga is over. If Lucas says the dark side is stronger, he's not going to suddenly change his mind. The story can't be changed that drasitcally once its filmed. The dark side seemed much more powerful in ROTJ, so I don't think Lucas has ever changed his mind about the issue.
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Magical_Maestro
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 5:24pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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yoshi-fett posted:
I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda's response about the dark side is from a certain point of view as well...
That's only if you ascribe to Lucas' new revisionism of the OT, which he does with frequent and reckless abandonment in the PT. Granted Ben does indeed tell "half" truths to Luke about his father, however regarding Yoda's statement about the Darkside being weaker, that was meant to be interpreted as truth. Notice Yoda didn't hesitate in answering Luke's question as Ben did, nor was he shifting his eyes around. This indicates Yoda was sincere, which makes his encounter with the Emperor in ROTS and running away for no reason even more proposterous. The fact of the matter is if you really want to point to the source of all "half" truths in Star Wars or in most cases just flat out lies, look no further than it's creator George Lucas. He's gone from one side of the fence to the other so many times, I've lost count. It's no wonder people get confused over what's fact and what's fiction.
If Lucas would have just stuck to his orginal story everybody would have been happy-there would be no Bashers and Gushers, just Star Wars fans. Instead though, because of his revisionism, the fanbase is now eternally polarized. A good example of his latest B.S. is in Empire magazine where he says verbatim: "The biggest controversy of all in Star Wars was that it had always been that Greedo simply shot first, but the way it was cut, you couldn't tell that. So people sort of said 'He murdered him! He murdered him! But it wasn't meant to be that way, so I added another shot to make it a little clearer. Obviously a lot of fans that wanted him to be a full-blown murderer got very upset about it, but I think they were misinterpreting the original film. They didn't hear the first shot because it was so close. It's always been that he wasn't a murderer, he's a rogue and everything, but he doesn't gun people down without them also firing. Ultimately it's a crucial point in his character but not a crucial point in the overall story." In the end you can either choose to believe what George says or not. Guess which side of the fence I'm on?
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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That's only if you ascribe to Lucas' new revisionism of the OT, which he does with frequent and reckless abandonment in the PT. Granted Ben does indeed tell "half" truths to Luke about his father, however regarding Yoda's statement about the Darkside being weaker, that was meant to be interpreted as truth. Notice Yoda didn't hesitate in answering Luke's question as Ben did, nor was he shifting his eyes around. This indicates Yoda was sincere, which makes his encounter with the Emperor in ROTS and running away for no reason even more proposterous. The fact of the matter is if you really want to point to the source of all "half" truths in Star Wars or in most cases just flat out lies, look no further than it's creator George Lucas. He's gone from one side of the fence to the other so many times, I've lost count. It's no wonder people get confused over what's fact and what's fiction.
I see no reason to state that Yoda's statement about the dark side is true. Even if Yoda believes the dark side isn't stronger, he's wrong because the creator says that it is. Its possible that Yoda lied while maintaining a convincing appearance. He's smart enough not to give Luke any signs that he's lying. If Lucas didn't originally intend for the dark side to be stronger, then why was the Emperor able to overpower Luke so easily with force lightning?
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 7:12pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Because Luke was a half-trained Jedi, and he had his defenses down.
The Dark Side may be stronger in some ways, but it is not better. It gives you more "power" than the Light Side, but it is more costly.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 7:32pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Because Luke was a half-trained Jedi, and he had his defenses down.
He was well-trained enough to beat Vader. Yoda said that Luke didn't need any more training and Vader said his "skills are complete". The Emperor also had no weapon, which shows he has a much greater control of the Force than Luke. I think people would assume this power comes from the superior strength of the dark side, since we've never seen Jedi use lightning.
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
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Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 8:06pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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>>>He was well-trained enough to beat Vader.<<<
Granted, though he was using the Dark Side to do it, and he took Vader off-guard.
>>>Yoda said that Luke didn't need any more training and Vader said his "skills are complete".<<<
He still had nowhere near the amount of training that the PT Jedi did. He had a couple of days or a couple of weeks during ESB, and some stuff from Obi-wan, but that was about it.
>>>The Emperor also had no weapon, which shows he has a much greater control of the Force than Luke. I think people would assume this power comes from the superior strength of the dark side, since we've never seen Jedi use lightning. <<<
Yes, the Emperor had greater control; he's also a lot older and more experienced than Luke. And Jedi never use lightning because... its a Darkside power.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 10:53am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Granted, though he was using the Dark Side to do it, and he took Vader off-guard.
Vader was also using the dark side. This shows that Luke is even better than an experienced Force user.
Yes, the Emperor had greater control; he's also a lot older and more experienced than Luke. And Jedi never use lightning because... its a Darkside power.
The fact that lightning is an dark side power is what makes the light side weaker. The Emperor has a very potent weapon in his fingers that the Jedi can't use.
Vader is older and more experienced than Luke, but wasn't more powerful. I think the Emperor's victory over Luke using a weapon that the Jedi can't use shows the dark side's superiority. Yoda wouldn't be able to beat Luke into submission that easily, to the point where Luke can't even defend himself.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 12:17pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Vader wasn't trying to kill his own son. That's why he lost to Luke.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 4:15pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Vader wasn't trying to kill his own son. That's why he lost to Luke.
Luke was more powerful than Vader at the time. This is why Lucas says that Luke had the advantage in the fight and why the Emperor wanted to replace Vader.
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 7:57am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
I see no reason to state that Yoda's statement about the dark side is true. Even if Yoda believes the dark side isn't stronger, he's wrong because the creator says that it is. Its possible that Yoda lied while maintaining a convincing appearance. He's smart enough not to give Luke any signs that he's lying. If Lucas didn't originally intend for the dark side to be stronger, then why was the Emperor able to overpower Luke so easily with force lightning?
[b]If Lucas didn't originally intend for the dark side to be stronger, then why was the Emperor able to overpower Luke so easily with force lightning?
farrell, this scene seems to confuse the hell out you....you continue to rant about "how powerful the emperor seemed in this scene". 
I dont know what the emperor did for you back in '83 but he attacked a man who had given up.
Think about it.....Luke had GIVEN UP!
He threw his weapon away, this scene did not make the emperor seem 'untouchable'.
It's obvious that Lucas originally intended for the darkside and lightside to be equals....with Luke and Vader being equals (with Luke being younger and having more potential) and Yoda and Sidious being equals.(two old wise force masters from each side).
The best way to keep from getting confused is to stop applying Lucas' new quotes/comments to his original trilogy.....he is an entirely different man than the same one who created 'StarWars' back in the day.
New comments for the new trilogy.
Old comments for the old trilogy.
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