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Topic:
How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 11:58am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
Vader wasn't trying to kill his own son. That's why he lost to Luke.
Luke was more powerful than Vader at the time. This is why Lucas says that Luke had the advantage in the fight and why the Emperor wanted to replace Vader.
But don't forget to take into account that Vader didn't want to kill his child. He wasn't fighting as hard he as he could.
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 1:03pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrell, this scene seems to confuse the hell out you....you continue to rant about "how powerful the emperor seemed in this scene". confused
I dont know what the emperor did for you back in '83 but he attacked a man who had given up.
Think about it.....Luke had GIVEN UP!
He threw his weapon away, this scene did not make the emperor seem 'untouchable'.
People who saw the OT had never seen lightning blocked. It seems they assumed that Luke would be electrocuted even if he had a weapon. Did you think or did Luke think that a saber could have blocked lightning when ROTJ was made? If not, then it would seem like the dark side is much stronger. The Emperor had a weapon that Luke couldn't defend against. This is why I think Lucas intended for the dark side to be stronger in the OT.
It's obvious that Lucas originally intended for the darkside and lightside to be equals....with Luke and Vader being equals (with Luke being younger and having more potential) and Yoda and Sidious being equals.(two old wise force masters from each side).
The best way to keep from getting confused is to stop applying Lucas' new quotes/comments to his original trilogy.....he is an entirely different man than the same one who created 'StarWars' back in the day.
The OT are still the same movies, with minor changes. All of Lucas' comments apply to the entire saga. There's no way to prove that he didn't initially intend for the dark side to be stronger. If if he didn't, Lucas now says that the dark side is stronger. The saga is complete, so Lucas' opinion about the nature of the Force stands.
If Lucas can just change his mind about everything, we wouldn't be able to be certain about anything in the movies. You could say that Anakin isn't really less powerful after his injuries because Lucas might change his mind. This doesn't work because the story is finished. Suited Vader is less powerful, and the dark side is more powerful. This is what Lucas decided.
I don't think the OT ever said that Yoda is the Emperor's equal. After all, the Emperor claimed that feeble Jedi "skills are no match for the power of the dark side". Maybe some people thought Yoda was the Emperor's equal. However, I saw a thread that claimed people thought the Emperor was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, based on ROTJ.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 1:11pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Actually, he said that Luke's skills are feeble. He didn't say that all Jedi skills are feeble. Palpatine's use of the Lightning was to do something different with the Force than had been previously established. Rather than just choking Luke or cutting him up with a Lightsaber, he was to be electorcuted slowly. But then Lucas changed things to show that the Jedi and Sith are not that different. That they could fight and that the Jedi could defeat the Sith.
Lucas only says that the Dark Side is stronger, if you want to cheat death. The Jedi cannot cheat death, nor do they desire to. And we don't know if they could cheat death, because the Sith are notorious for lying. Finally, Obi-wan says that he will become more powerful if he dies. Palpatine only beats Yoda to establish why he didn't go after him again, why he went into exile and why only Anakin could kill him. Luke cannot beat him only for the purpose of giving Anakin a choice, save his son or stand by his Master. He chooses to save his son.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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TrueJedi
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 1:13pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Rogue_Follower posted:
Not to make this a canon debat, but its slightly different than that.
According to the canon ranking system in The Holocron (read: LFL), just about all of the EU is canon, except for certain things like Infinities, some Tales, etc. However, the EU is rated as C-canon, which means that the films (G-canon) win out whenever there is a contradiction.
None of the Star Wars novels, guides, RPG stuff, etc. are fan-fiction, because they are endorsed by LFL. Lucas himself OKs some of the major plot points in the novels (for example, he edited a list of potential Force Powers to be seen in the Tales of the Jedi comic series, and almost certainly was involved in the decision to allow Chewie to die.)
I don't know what you're talking about but all I can do is refer you to: [link=Canon or Not]http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html[/link]
That has been my source for what is canon and what is not and unless I misread (and that may be possible), you are mistaken.
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 3:02pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
The OT are still the same movies, with minor changes. All of Lucas' comments apply to the entire saga. There's no way to prove that he didn't initially intend for the dark side to be stronger. If if he didn't, Lucas now says that the dark side is stronger. The saga is complete, so Lucas' opinion about the nature of the Force stands.
If Lucas can just change his mind about everything, we wouldn't be able to be certain about anything in the movies.
Yeah I know. 
You could say that Anakin isn't really less powerful after his injuries because Lucas might change his mind. Would it shock you? I wouldnt be surprised if he changes his mind and brings back Padme for the T.V. series.
This doesn't work because the story is finished. Suited Vader is less powerful, and the dark side is more powerful. This is what Lucas decided.
The darkside is ONLY more powerful in the department that Anakin is interested in. Things that are 'unnatural'.
I don't think the OT ever said that Yoda is the Emperor's equal. After all, the Emperor claimed that feeble Jedi "skills are no match for the power of the dark side".
No he said "YOUR feeble skills are no match for the power of the darkside"...he's talking directly to/about Luke....not every single jedi. Yes the lightning was a new power (for us the viewers), but it didnt seem like something that Yoda wouldnt have had knowledge of.....HE'S OVER 900 YEARS OLD. Maybe some people thought Yoda was the Emperor's equal. However, I saw a thread that claimed people thought the Emperor was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, based on ROTJ.
Well post the link....I'll go over and straighten 'em out. 
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 4:54pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Actually, he said that Luke's skills are feeble. He didn't say that all Jedi skills are feeble.
Luke is a Jedi. Wouldn't that mean the Emperor is talking about the Jedi in general? Luke's skills are feeble next to the power of the dark side. They wouldn't be feeble next to the power of the light side.
Palpatine's use of the Lightning was to do something different with the Force than had been previously established. Rather than just choking Luke or cutting him up with a Lightsaber, he was to be electorcuted slowly. But then Lucas changed things to show that the Jedi and Sith are not that different. That they could fight and that the Jedi could defeat the Sith.
That's what was so good about ROTJ. We saw the Emperor use a Force power that was never seen before. I don't see why it was necessary to change anything when it worked for the story in 1983. It made people see the Emperor as more menacing and powerful. Now people seem to see him as just a fraud in the power department who talks about being all-powerful but doesn't do anything special.
but it didnt seem like something that Yoda wouldnt have had knowledge of.....HE'S OVER 900 YEARS OLD.
Possibly. The real question is did Luke have any idea that lightning can be blocked?
Well post the link....I'll go over and straighten 'em out.
It was a thread asking if Palpatine looks less powerful in ROTS. The thread was locked, but I saved some pages from it on my computer. Here are some excerpts:
"I remember when there was a time that people thought Palpatine was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. Well, I don't think so anymore. He seems like he's just a master of the dark side. That's it."
In response to this statement, another poster said: "WHY we thought that was because of RotJ, NOT RotS." The first poster went on to say that he initially thought Yoda was talking out of the side of his neck when he said only a fully trained Jedi will conquer the Emperor, but now he believes Yoda. A third poster said: "its good to see that he is not an all powerfull god as he is shown on ROTJ."
Edit: But don't forget to take into account that Vader didn't want to kill his child. He wasn't fighting as hard he as he could.
I think Vader was fighting to the best of his ability. Because Luke was stronger, Vader was unable to beat him.
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 7:16pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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>>>That has been my source for what is canon and what is not and unless I misread (and that may be possible), you are mistaken. <<<
Actually, the canon-related statements over at SWTC are pretty old, so they don't always apply to current canon policy. Circa 2000 or so,Lucas Licensing (IIRC) began a drive to revamp its canon and continuity policies, in order to prevent (or at least decrease the amount of) errors. I believe the Holocron (LFL's Star Wars Bible, so to speak) was one of the first things to use the G-canon,C-canon,S-canon,N-canon rating system, though it hasn't been released to the public and is only used by LucasCompany employees.
I will admit right away that I am biased towards the EU, since I've been into it for a while and enjoy a majority of it. However, I would also like to point out that Curtis Saxton's site (the SWTC) is heavily biased towards using a strict interpretation of the films over information given by the EU---though I doubt that he is against the EU, since he's contributed to it a number of times... Additionally, Saxton does not have all relevant VIP quotes there (he hasn't updated the canon section in a while), especially the modern ones from people like Leland Chee (Keeper of the Holocron) and Sue Rostoni (editor at Lucas Licensing.)
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/12/06 11:48pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
Luke is a Jedi. Wouldn't that mean the Emperor is talking about the Jedi in general? Luke's skills are feeble next to the power of the dark side. They wouldn't be feeble next to the power of the light side.
Nope. He's just talking about Luke who thinks he's got what it takes to go up against him, without a Lightsaber. He's making a point in showing him that he's screwed and he only has himself to blame for it.
farrellg posted:
That's what was so good about ROTJ. We saw the Emperor use a Force power that was never seen before. I don't see why it was necessary to change anything when it worked for the story in 1983. It made people see the Emperor as more menacing and powerful. Now people seem to see him as just a fraud in the power department who talks about being all-powerful but doesn't do anything special.
Because Lucas wanted to change it. That's all Palpatine and the Dark Side is. A fraud. A mere old man who could be defeated, but only by a man destined to kill him. The Dark Side is full of empty promises and false power. His true power lies within the mind, not the body.
farrellg posted:
Possibly. The real question is did Luke have any idea that lightning can be blocked?
Maybe. Maybe not. He throws his sword away, which is symbolic of throwing away his life.
farrellg posted:
I think Vader was fighting to the best of his ability. Because Luke was stronger, Vader was unable to beat him.
If he was fighting to the best of his ability, Luke would be dead. Against any opponet, Vader wouldn't be conflicted. But it's his own flesh and blood.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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battlewars
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 12:20am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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the force lightning scene with mace and the fight with yoda not to mention how much more middle aged the emperor looked in the prequels definitely made him look weaker in my eyes, than compared to rotj
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r8hitman
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 9:31am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
Well post the link....I'll go over and straighten 'em out.
It was a thread asking if Palpatine looks less powerful in ROTS. The thread was locked, but I saved some pages from it on my computer. Here are some excerpts:
"I remember when there was a time that people thought Palpatine was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. Well, I don't think so anymore. He seems like he's just a master of the dark side. That's it."
In response to this statement, another poster said: "WHY we thought that was because of RotJ, NOT RotS." The first poster went on to say that he initially thought Yoda was talking out of the side of his neck when he said only a fully trained Jedi will conquer the Emperor, but now he believes Yoda. A third poster said: "its good to see that he is not an all powerfull god as he is shown on ROTJ."
Are you talking about this one??
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 10:04am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Nope. He's just talking about Luke who thinks he's got what it takes to go up against him, without a Lightsaber. He's making a point in showing him that he's screwed and he only has himself to blame for it.
The Emperor was very specific in his statement. He said that Luke was no match for the power of the dark side, not that he was no match for the Force in general. If Luke threw away his lightsaber in front of an unarmed Jedi, he wouldn't be in danger. He is in danger if he does the same in front of the Emperor, who has lightning at his disposal. This is why the Jedi are "feeble" next to the power of the dark side. They can't do much without a lightsaber.
That's all Palpatine and the Dark Side is. A fraud. A mere old man who could be defeated, but only by a man destined to kill him. The Dark Side is full of empty promises and false power. His true power lies within the mind, not the body.
People didn't think the Emperor was a fraud when they saw ROTJ. Its better to have a villain who's genuinely powerful. This makes him seem scarier, which is how an ultimate villain should be perceived. A villain who doesn't scare anyone isn't effective.
The more powerful the Emperor is, the more people will be frightened. This is why the strong are admired. People crave power. More viewers will admire the Emperor if he looks more powerful, as he did in ROTJ.
If he was fighting to the best of his ability, Luke would be dead. Against any opponet, Vader wouldn't be conflicted. But it's his own flesh and blood.
Not in ROTJ. Luke was more powerful than his mechanical father at the time. Even Lucas acknowledges this.
the force lightning scene with mace and the fight with yoda not to mention how much more middle aged the emperor looked in the prequels definitely made him look weaker in my eyes, than compared to rotj
I think you have precisely identified the problem with ROTS. If the Emperor's portrayal was consistent with ROTJ, no one would think he looks weaker.
Are you talking about this one??
No, although there were quite a few people in your thread who said the Emperor was previously thought of as the most powerful Force user but looks weaker in ROTS. The thread I was referring to was called "Does/Sidious-Palpatine seem less powerful in your eyes?" The first post was on May 19 at 9:33 P.M.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 11:37am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
The Emperor was very specific in his statement. He said that Luke was no match for the power of the dark side, not that he was no match for the Force in general. If Luke threw away his lightsaber in front of an unarmed Jedi, he wouldn't be in danger. He is in danger if he does the same in front of the Emperor, who has lightning at his disposal. This is why the Jedi are "feeble" next to the power of the dark side. They can't do much without a lightsaber.
They can do a lot without a Lightsaber as Obi-wan proved with Jango and Grievous. However, Palpatine is making Luke regret his decision not to join him, by torturing him first.
farrellg posted:
People didn't think the Emperor was a fraud when they saw ROTJ. Its better to have a villain who's genuinely powerful. This makes him seem scarier, which is how an ultimate villain should be perceived. A villain who doesn't scare anyone isn't effective.
And the PT has shown us that he's not all that scary. He's just a pathetic old man with delusions of grandeur.
farrellg posted:
The more powerful the Emperor is, the more people will be frightened. This is why the strong are admired. People crave power. More viewers will admire the Emperor if he looks more powerful, as he did in ROTJ.
But Lucas doesn't want us to admire Palpatine. He wants us to see him as just an evil individual who we should hate rather than admire. He's just one great big bully.
farrellg posted:
Not in ROTJ. Luke was more powerful than his mechanical father at the time. Even Lucas acknowledges this.
Only because one was using the Dark Side and one wasn't.
farrellg posted:
I think you have precisely identified the problem with ROTS. If the Emperor's portrayal was consistent with ROTJ, no one would think he looks weaker.
It shows that Palpatine could be defeated without Anakin. Besides, we all know he's faking being weak.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 1:21pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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They can do a lot without a Lightsaber as Obi-wan proved with Jango and Grievous.
Those are non-Force users. The Jedi wouldn't be able to overpower Luke without a lightsaber. Only the Emperor can do that.
And the PT has shown us that he's not all that scary. He's just a pathetic old man with delusions of grandeur.
I think you need a scary villain in order to have an effective story. If the monster in a horror film didn't frighten anyone, people wouldn't enjoy the movie. The Emperor is supposed to be a menacing character because he's the ultimate villain.
But Lucas doesn't want us to admire Palpatine. He wants us to see him as just an evil individual who we should hate rather than admire. He's just one great big bully.
Why wouldn't Lucas want us to admire the ultimate villain of the story? Many people have an affinity for evil characters.
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Mandalore_X
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
They can do a lot without a Lightsaber as Obi-wan proved with Jango and Grievous.
Those are non-Force users. The Jedi wouldn't be able to overpower Luke without a lightsaber. Only the Emperor can do that.
And the PT has shown us that he's not all that scary. He's just a pathetic old man with delusions of grandeur.
I think you need a scary villain in order to have an effective story. If the monster in a horror film didn't frighten anyone, people wouldn't enjoy the movie. The Emperor is supposed to be a menacing character because he's the ultimate villain.
But Lucas doesn't want us to admire Palpatine. He wants us to see him as just an evil individual who we should hate rather than admire. He's just one great big bully.
Why wouldn't Lucas want us to admire the ultimate villain of the story? Many people have an affinity for evil characters.
Farrelg.Lucas said Vader was the one meant to sacre poeople,not the emperor.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Palpatine became powerful because of the lineage of the Sith since the onset of the rule of two. Master and aprentice; when the apprentice is strong enough he defeats the master, if the apprentice is not strong enough he waits until he becomes so or else he is killed then the master must find a new apprentice. Each successive Sith paring must become very pwerful or else they will not survive.
The Jedi do not train this way, the Sith do. This is why any Sith encountered are tough opponents, they are made that way.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new.While the Jedi-
The Jedi had spent the last millenium training to refight the last war.--ROTS novelization.
Sidious is the culmination of a thousand years of adaptation.
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