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How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Farrelg.Lucas said Vader was the one meant to sacre poeople,not the emperor.
Where did he say this? Do you have a quote?
The Emperor is more powerful and more evil than Vader, so he should be scarier than his mechanical apprentice. The ESB novel even claims that the Emperor is the only person Vader fears. I've heard other people say that the Emperor keeps Vader in line through fear.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/13/06 11:15pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
Those are non-Force users. The Jedi wouldn't be able to overpower Luke without a lightsaber. Only the Emperor can do that.
A mere Force shove is overpowering someone who hasn't done that. Force shove will knock someone out, done right. Can cripple or kill living beings. That's why the Jedi never use them against humans, just droids and each other.
farrellg posted:
I think you need a scary villain in order to have an effective story. If the monster in a horror film didn't frighten anyone, people wouldn't enjoy the movie. The Emperor is supposed to be a menacing character because he's the ultimate villain.
This isn't a horror film. Besides, horror films have been successful without being scary.
farrellg posted:
Why wouldn't Lucas want us to admire the ultimate villain of the story? Many people have an affinity for evil characters.
Because the moral of the story is evil is wrong and bad. We need to be good and just. Lucas has told us a modern day myth. In all mythologies, good and evil are seen for what they really are. Evil is bad and good is good.
farrellg posted:
The Emperor is more powerful and more evil than Vader, so he should be scarier than his mechanical apprentice. The ESB novel even claims that the Emperor is the only person Vader fears. I've heard other people say that the Emperor keeps Vader in line through fear.
He's only scary because he can switch Vader off, just like that. But it never comes across in the movies that Vader is afraid of Sidious, in the OT. Only Jerjerrod is afraid of him. Lucas didn't follow through on that concept of Vader being intimidated by Sidious.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
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Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 1:29am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth_sinister posted:
That's all Palpatine and the Dark Side is. A fraud. A mere old man who could be defeated, but only by a man destined to kill him. The Dark Side is full of empty promises and false power.
The fraud and false power of wiping out the Jedi order and overtaking the galaxy? 
farrellq posted:
People didn't think the Emperor was a fraud when they saw ROTJ. Its better to have a villain who's genuinely powerful. This makes him seem scarier, which is how an ultimate villain should be perceived. A villain who doesn't scare anyone isn't effective.
The more powerful the Emperor is, the more people will be frightened. This is why the strong are admired. People crave power. More viewers will admire the Emperor if he looks more powerful, as he did in ROTJ.
[...]
I think you have precisely identified the problem with ROTS. If the Emperor's portrayal was consistent with ROTJ, no one would think he looks weaker.
Power, to me, isn't about shooting unstoppable lightning. If you want to see a brainless villain shooting unstoppable lightning I'd recommend Babylon5, I/4 ("Infection") - you're going to see him there. I find nothing compelling to that sort of villain. He also doesn't come across as being very powerful and unstoppable; in fact, he's quite easily outsmarted by Cmdr. Sinclair.
darth_sinister posted:
But Lucas doesn't want us to admire Palpatine. He wants us to see him as just an evil individual who we should hate rather than admire.
Well, if this is the case I have to say that Lucas did a poor job in this respect. It seems I'm not the only one having a hard time not to admire his mind during the PT. Conversely, I don't find a lot worth admiring in the conceit, stupidity and clumsyness the Jedi order displays.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 11:54am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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mandragora posted:
The fraud and false power of wiping out the Jedi order and overtaking the galaxy?
Yeah, he needed to use subterfuge and two armies to do this. He didn't pick up his Lightsaber and shoot out Lightning bolts against ten thousand Jedi. He may have had a brilliant analytical mind, but he wasn't a god.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 11:56am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg posted:
I don't think a Jedi could kill Luke with just a force push.
Snap your neck and possibly crack your head open.
farrellg posted:
Lightning is a harder power to defend against. We even saw Obi-Wan block Anakin's force push. Jedi usually use force pushes in the middle of a lightsaber battle. Its harder to force push someone if they aren't concentrating on something else. You can block a Force push more easily if you're not concentrating on swordfighting.
Yeah, they know how to do it. Luke doesn't ever use a Force shove. Thus he'd be owned by a Force shove. Especially a king size one that Obi-wan used on Grievous and tried to use on Anakin.
farrellg posted:
Even in non-horror films, people want the villain to be scary. I read that MGM wanted the Wicked Witch of the West to be frightening for children. Many people liked Darth Vader because they thought he was scary.
Lex Luthor isn't scary. Blofeld wasn't scary. Moriarty isn't scary. The Wicked Witch had to be scary, because MGM wanted it to be that way.
farrellg posted:
Whatever the moral is, it doesn't stop people from admiring evil characters. Making a villain powerful doesn't even mean that he is a "good" person. It simply makes the story exciting. Real power is more interesting than false power. That's why a lot of people have been disappointed by movies that portray false supernatural occurances.
No, it's because those films ****. Not because of the scariness. But because they were poor films all around.
farrellg posted:
What about when Vader says that he must obey his Master and takes orders from the Emperor? Would you consider that a sign of fear?
Nope. Who says that he's talking about Palpatine? Maybe he is refering to the Dark Side. The Dark Side owns him. It controls him. Palpatine just gives orders, but it's the Dark Side that makes him do what he does.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Date Posted:
1/14/06 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Sorry farrellg, I accidently posted over what you wrote. I'm not sure how I did that. My apologies. 
farrellg posted:
I don't think a Jedi could kill Luke with just a force push.
Snap your neck and possibly crack your head open.
farrellg posted:
Lightning is a harder power to defend against. We even saw Obi-Wan block Anakin's force push. Jedi usually use force pushes in the middle of a lightsaber battle. Its harder to force push someone if they aren't concentrating on something else. You can block a Force push more easily if you're not concentrating on swordfighting.
Yeah, they know how to do it. Luke doesn't ever use a Force shove. Thus he'd be owned by a Force shove. Especially a king size one that Obi-wan used on Grievous and tried to use on Anakin.
farrellg posted:
Even in non-horror films, people want the villain to be scary. I read that MGM wanted the Wicked Witch of the West to be frightening for children. Many people liked Darth Vader because they thought he was scary.
Lex Luthor isn't scary. Blofeld wasn't scary. Moriarty isn't scary. The Wicked Witch had to be scary, because MGM wanted it to be that way.
farrellg posted:
Whatever the moral is, it doesn't stop people from admiring evil characters. Making a villain powerful doesn't even mean that he is a "good" person. It simply makes the story exciting. Real power is more interesting than false power. That's why a lot of people have been disappointed by movies that portray false supernatural occurances.
No, it's because those films ****. Not because of the scariness. But because they were poor films all around.
farrellg posted:
What about when Vader says that he must obey his Master and takes orders from the Emperor? Would you consider that a sign of fear?
Nope. Who says that he's talking about Palpatine? Maybe he is refering to the Dark Side. The Dark Side owns him. It controls him. Palpatine just gives orders, but it's the Dark Side that makes him do what he does.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:38am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister posted:
Yeah, he needed to use subterfuge and two armies to do this. He didn't pick up his Lightsaber and shoot out Lightning bolts against ten thousand Jedi. He may have had a brilliant analytical mind, but he wasn't a god.
Did anyone, after having just seen the OT, actually think he had become Emperor by picking up a lightsaber? Such an idea would be incredibly naive (well, if I think about it, it obviously was what the Jedi obviously had expected). No-one becomes Emperor by fighting a face to facen fight alone against the whole galaxy.
I don't know about other people, but I had always thought that not only in the process of actually taking over but also in the process of planning and building the Empire there were a lot more people actively and consciously involved. I had no idea that he had planned and orchestrated the whole thing practically single-handedly.
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darth_frared
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 9:13am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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mandragora posted:
Such an idea would be incredibly naive (well, if I think about it, it obviously was what the Jedi obviously had expected).
completely clueless they were. their arrogance blinding them to a tee.
they could not even once imagine that the sith would actually have the balls to sit right under their nose and also couldn't even assume they wouldn't be as straightforward as the jedi who just show up on your door step and openly accuse you of something or other, without having any proof whatsoever. just rushing and hastily doing anything at all in order not to appear motionless. *shakes head*
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TheMaidofOrleans
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 9:17am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Studying? Hitting the books and a few Jedi from time to time.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 10:40am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Yeah, they know how to do it. Luke doesn't ever use a Force shove. Thus he'd be owned by a Force shove. Especially a king size one that Obi-wan used on Grievous and tried to use on Anakin.
Luke has used telekinetic powers. He lifted Threepio up in the air, which is the same concept as a Force push. I see no evidence that Luke would be owned by a Force push. Vader wasn't able to defeat him this way. Grievous is a non-Force user, so its a lot easier to Force push him than it is to Force push Luke. This is why Vader Force chokes Imperial officers, but doesn't Force choke Luke or Obi-Wan.
Lex Luthor isn't scary. Blofeld wasn't scary. Moriarty isn't scary. The Wicked Witch had to be scary, because MGM wanted it to be that way.
The Emperor already was portrayed as "scary" in ROTJ. That's how the character was envisioned, so the films should continue to make him seem just as frightening.
No, it's because those films ****. Not because of the scariness. But because they were poor films all around.
I think that a lack of shock factor contributes to the poor quality of the film. Some people thought that Mark of the Vampire was a good film up until the point where its revealed that the "vampires" are charlatans. In the same way, when people go into a film expecting to see an ultra-powerful villain based on a previous film, they are going to be disappointed if he appears weaker.
Nope. Who says that he's talking about Palpatine? Maybe he is refering to the Dark Side. The Dark Side owns him. It controls him. Palpatine just gives orders, but it's the Dark Side that makes him do what he does.
He said: "I must obey my Master." Vader must be referring to the Emperor, since he is Vader's Master. The dark side isn't an animate person, so it can't give Vader direct orders. Vader can only feel tempted to continue using the dark side.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 11:12am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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mandragora posted:
Did anyone, after having just seen the OT, actually think he had become Emperor by picking up a lightsaber? Such an idea would be incredibly naive (well, if I think about it, it obviously was what the Jedi obviously had expected). No-one becomes Emperor by fighting a face to facen fight alone against the whole galaxy.
I don't know about other people, but I had always thought that not only in the process of actually taking over but also in the process of planning and building the Empire there were a lot more people actively and consciously involved. I had no idea that he had planned and orchestrated the whole thing practically single-handedly.
I never gave much thought to it, mostly to avoid hyping it up in my mind. Mainly because I'd let the PT fill me in. I think there were those who thought that Palpatine just came in with the Stormtroopers and just overpowered the Jedi in battle, especially once Anakin became Vader.
farrellg posted:
Luke has used telekinetic powers. He lifted Threepio up in the air, which is the same concept as a Force push. I see no evidence that Luke would be owned by a Force push. Vader wasn't able to defeat him this way. Grievous is a non-Force user, so its a lot easier to Force push him than it is to Force push Luke. This is why Vader Force chokes Imperial officers, but doesn't Force choke Luke or Obi-Wan.
Vader has no clue how well trained Luke is, when they finally face off. He's impressed when Luke proves to be a match for him. Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, so a well timed Force shove is out of the question. Luke does know how to lift someone or something up. But he appears to not know how to use it agaisnt an opponet as demonstrated during the Sail Barge assault. In fact, it isn't until "Dark Empire" in the eu that he finally starts to use it. Vader wouldn't use a Force choke, because it can be countered. That's only logical. But if one doesn't know how to deal with it, they can be taken unaware.
farrellg posted:
The Emperor already was portrayed as "scary" in ROTJ. That's how the character was envisioned, so the films should continue to make him seem just as frightening.
I wasn't scared when I saw him. I was six. I saw him as just like Skeletor and he wasn't scary either.
farrelg posted:
I think that a lack of shock factor contributes to the poor quality of the film. Some people thought that Mark of the Vampire was a good film up until the point where its revealed that the "vampires" are charlatans. In the same way, when people go into a film expecting to see an ultra-powerful villain based on a previous film, they are going to be disappointed if he appears weaker.
That's called a **** poor film, with a bad plot twist.
farrellg posted:
He said: "I must obey my Master." Vader must be referring to the Emperor, since he is Vader's Master. The dark side isn't an animate person, so it can't give Vader direct orders. Vader can only feel tempted to continue using the dark side.
The Force can control your actions, but it can obey your orders. As Lucas said, the Dark Side can take over a Jedi.
It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can’t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.
--Star Wars-The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.
This was a concept that's mostly not used anymore, but it is worth noting that it expands on Obi-wan's statements that the Force obeys your actions, but also can control you. Lucas would modify this over time, but it there when it comes to the idea of fighting. That a Jedi must use the Force passively, otherwise they will become tainted by the Dark Side.
"Luke is therefore urging Stoic wisdom upon Vader when he tells him to let go of his hate. Unfortunately, hatred has had such a viselike hold on Vader for so long that he tells Luke: "It is too late for me son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." For servants of the Dark Side, the true nature of the Force is servitude to evil, enslavement to hate. Like virtues, vices tend to control one's behavior. Vader has used fear and hatred to achieve his ends for so long that now the superior hatred and aggression of the Emperor use him. That is how Vader's mastery of the Dark Side is at the same time servitude to it."
--Star Wars and Philosophy, page 27.
It's Palpatine, but it's also the Dark Side that Vader is a servent to. Palpatine is merely the one who inducts a Jedi into being a Sith. But it's the Dark Side that rules Vader. Even if Palpatine is killed, Vader would still be a slave to the Dark Side. It rules him. It controls him. He's only with Palpatine until it's time to kill him. The opportunity comes when Luke shows up.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mandragora
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May '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 11:39am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister posted:
I never gave much thought to it, mostly to avoid hyping it up in my mind. Mainly because I'd let the PT fill me in. I think there were those who thought that Palpatine just came in with the Stormtroopers and just overpowered the Jedi in battle, especially once Anakin became Vader.
frankly, I never gave much thought to it either - it's just this discussion that had me reflecting on what my perception was back then.
I don't pretend having had any detailed idea on what had happened. But I know that I didn't think the Empire had come to be by overpowering the Jedi by means of one man with a lightsaber or forcelighting. I also know I didn't expect one single man to have orchestrated the whole thing almost single-handedly. If I had any concrete idea at all, it would be more like one man having the support of a considerable number of others.
It would be interesting to explore how people had thought the Empire to come to be, don't you think?
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farrellg
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Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 11:39am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, so a well timed Force shove is out of the question. Luke does know how to lift someone or something up. But he appears to not know how to use it agaisnt an opponet as demonstrated during the Sail Barge assault. In fact, it isn't until "Dark Empire" in the eu that he finally starts to use it. Vader wouldn't use a Force choke, because it can be countered. That's only logical. But if one doesn't know how to deal with it, they can be taken unaware.
A force push wouldn't necessarily kill Luke. Vader hurled heavy objects at Luke and cut off his hand, which could be more damaging than a force push.
If Luke can lift someone up, that's the same thing as a force push. Dooku lifted Obi-Wan up in the air. Maybe Luke didn't feel it was necessary to force push anyone at Jabba's sail barge. If a force choke can be countered, than so can a force push (as Anakin and Obi-Wan demonstrated).
I wasn't scared when I saw him. I was six. I saw him as just like Skeletor and he wasn't scary either.
Electrocuting Luke and ordering around Vader didn't make him seem scary? I would have thought so, or at least that he seems scarier if no one sees his lightning blocked.
Wouldn't the Emperor be different than Skeletor because the latter is always defeated? The Emperor is able to easily overpower the hero.
It's Palpatine, but it's also the Dark Side that Vader is a servent to. Palpatine is merely the one who inducts a Jedi into being a Sith. But it's the Dark Side that rules Vader. Even if Palpatine is killed, Vader would still be a slave to the Dark Side. It rules him. It controls him. He's only with Palpatine until it's time to kill him. The opportunity comes when Luke shows up.
We might not have concerte evidence that Vader fears the Emperor. Vader's situation could be similar to an addiction, where the dark side practically dominates his existence. The shackles of the dark side are too strong for Vader to break, or so he thinks.
Did anyone, after having just seen the OT, actually think he had become Emperor by picking up a lightsaber?
I always assumed he became Emperor through political means. There are so many Jedi. I never imagined that the Emperor would kill them all himself, especially since I wasn't aware he had fighting skills. I figured that the Emperor might kill some people with lightning, while Vader and his troops would take care of eliminating the majority of his enemies.
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darth-sinister
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 11:59am
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RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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mandragora posted:
darth-sinister posted:
I never gave much thought to it, mostly to avoid hyping it up in my mind. Mainly because I'd let the PT fill me in. I think there were those who thought that Palpatine just came in with the Stormtroopers and just overpowered the Jedi in battle, especially once Anakin became Vader.
frankly, I never gave much thought to it either - it's just this discussion that had me reflecting on what my perception was back then.
I don't pretend having had any detailed idea on what had happened. But I know that I didn't think the Empire had come to be by overpowering the Jedi by means of one man with a lightsaber or forcelighting. I also know I didn't expect one single man to have orchestrated the whole thing almost single-handedly. If I had any concrete idea at all, it would be more like one man having the support of a considerable number of others.
It would be interesting to explore how people had thought the Empire to come to be, don't you think?
I understand what you're saying. I assume you mean audience preception or eu material?
farrellg posted:
A force push wouldn't necessarily kill Luke. Vader hurled heavy objects at Luke and cut off his hand, which could be more damaging than a force push.
You saw how hard Obi-wan was thrown against the balcony. Imagine it being done on a human, much less a very inexperienced Jedi like Luke.
farrellg posted:
If Luke can lift someone up, that's the same thing as a force push. Dooku lifted Obi-Wan up in the air. Maybe Luke didn't feel it was necessary to force push anyone at Jabba's sail barge. If a force choke can be countered, than so can a force push (as Anakin and Obi-Wan demonstrated).
Luke has less than a year's worth of training. Vader has had years of training. Vader knows more about the Force than Luke. Thus he could do all kinds of stuff to Luke. Same with Obi-wan. Luke can levitate objects. That's not a Force push. A Force push/shove is where you send someone/something hurtling in the air. Levitation is just that.
farrellg posted:
Electrocuting Luke and ordering around Vader didn't make him seem scary? I would have thought so, or at least that he seems scarier if no one sees his lightning blocked.
Nothing Palpatine did was scary to a six year old, like me. This is my point in thinking that everyone shares your worldview. I know that the same could be said of me and what I've said. I can remember seeing the film for the first time and he never once scared me. Neither did Vader for that matter and I was four when I saw ANH.
farrellg posted:
Wouldn't the Emperor be different than Skeletor because the latter is always defeated? The Emperor is able to easily overpower the hero.
Nope. Besides, Palpatine's defeated at the end of ROTJ by nothing more simple as picking him up and throwing him down a hole. Some all powerful being he was.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mandragora
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:03pm
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RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister posted:
I understand what you're saying. I assume you mean audience preception or eu material?
Well, both of it, actually. I could ask my friends for an input on audience perception. I'm not too familiar with the EU and its take on the subject - perhaps you could fill me in?
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