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Topic:
How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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You saw how hard Obi-wan was thrown against the balcony. Imagine it being done on a human, much less a very inexperienced Jedi like Luke.
Vader might have found an opening to force push Luke in ESB, but Luke was too strong for Vader to overpower him in ROTJ.
Luke can levitate objects. That's not a Force push. A Force push/shove is where you send someone/something hurtling in the air. Levitation is just that.
If you levitate someone, you can make them hit the wall. It seems like the same thing as a force push to me.
The question is whether lightning is more powerful than a force push. It seems like lightning is stronger because only the most Advanced Sith lords can use it. Even Obi-Wan and Anakin could use force pushes as Padawans. The Emperor could use lightning when he's unarmed, but his Jedi opponents are defenseless against him if they don't have a saber.
Nothing Palpatine did was scary to a six year old, like me. This is my point in thinking that everyone shares your worldview. I know that the same could be said of me and what I've said. I can remember seeing the film for the first time and he never once scared me. Neither did Vader for that matter and I was four when I saw ANH.
Some people might think he was scary, even if that isn't true for everyone. Not seeing lightning blocked would give the Emperor the same image he had in ROTJ. It seems that people have adjusted their view of the Emperor's powers because of ROTS.
Nope. Besides, Palpatine's defeated at the end of ROTJ by nothing more simple as picking him up and throwing him down a hole. Some all powerful being he was.
I think the difference is Skeletor has never overpowered the hero, but the Emperor has. The Emperor is defeated by Vader, but at least he manages to defeat Luke with the blue lightning.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:16pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Most of the eu prior to the PT depict roughly what Lucas wrote in his intro to ANH and what James Kahn wrote in the ROTJ novelization, which was loosely based on that. Only a couple of details were off, such as when the Clone Wars ended that some Jedi stood up to the Emperor in the Senate. The date was just a simple error based on old materal, before Lucas said when it took place. The Senate part was based on Lucas' second draft and I think the radio drama of ANH.
From a fan view point, I'm not sure. I do recall that I think some people thought that there would be a huge fight and overthrowing of the Jedi and Republic. Rather than the Republic becoming the Empire.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:23pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister posted:
Most of the eu prior to the PT depict roughly what Lucas wrote in his intro to ANH and what James Kahn wrote in the ROTJ novelization, which was loosely based on that. Only a couple of details were off, such as when the Clone Wars ended that some Jedi stood up to the Emperor in the Senate. The date was just a simple error based on old materal, before Lucas said when it took place. The Senate part was based on Lucas' second draft and I think the radio drama of ANH.
From a fan view point, I'm not sure. I do recall that I think some people thought that there would be a huge fight and overthrowing of the Jedi and Republic. Rather than the Republic becoming the Empire.
I see. The ANH intro and the ROTJ novelization to a great extent leave it up to the imagination of the audience, I think.
As to the fan POV: Seems more like one man is taking power by means of brute force, rather than power "is given power by the rest of us, because we are stupid, or afraid, or both." (another B5 quote, forgive me). I admit that most likely my ideas went in the same direction back then. But now I must say I'm a lot happier with story as it turned out to be.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 12:48pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon. When ROTS was coming out, people were thinking that he was drawing comparisons to George W. Bush and current events. Though Lucas said that it's more along the lines of other leaders and not so much the current leader.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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vong333
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/15/06 2:09pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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In a way, that was why the OT was very good. It was a simple good vs. evil story, mirroed in mythology with a mix of japanese. The prequels for some reason try to legitamize the OT. I guess thats why I have had a hard time following it as much as the OT stories.
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/16/06 2:32am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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darth-sinister posted:
That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon. When ROTS was coming out, people were thinking that he was drawing comparisons to George W. Bush and current events. Though Lucas said that it's more along the lines of other leaders and not so much the current leader.
I think he distilled the general process by which a democracy is endangered to turn into a dictatorship, a process that has kept repeating itself throughout history. Though I think none of the leaders mentioned can be "credited" for having orchestrated the process on his own to the extent Palpatine has.
Perhaps what people (and myself) had imagined back then was something closer to a military coup, kind of what happened quite a few times in some non-western countries. But it seems that this isn't the greatest or at least not the only danger for a modern democracy - the danger that is often overlooked is coming from within, and it's really more about giving power to the people in question than seizing power by means of an act of force on the part of them.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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DarthDubya05
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
1/20/06 8:32am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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now this would make a great Novel or comic book idea, if Lucasarts allowes this to be done.
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vote_for_palpatine
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/20/06 9:23pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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First of all, to the recent question, it makes sense that the Republic would become the Empire - after all, most of the infrastructure (world governments, the Senate) was already in place. Palpatine filled in the gap (the military) to deal with the one body poised to stand in his way - the Jedi.
As to the leading question, it's obvious to me that genetics play a role. The most powerful Force users depicted in the PT have high midichlorian counts. Combining Palpatine's Force power with his shrewd, calculating mind makes for one of the most effective Force users in the history of the GFFA.
Who's more powerful? is indeterminate. It seems to me that Palpatine, Yoda, Anakin/Vader, Dooku, and Mace Windu were all roughly equal (give or take 10%), while Maul and Obi-Wan were a little bit behind that group.
Palpatine prevailed because his ability to control and manipulate people and events could not be countered.
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There are WAAAY too many Dark Side fans among Star Wars fans. The whole point of SW is that good wins in the end. I love this thread: http://boards.theforce.net/revenge_of_the_sith/b10331/21652472/p1/?1496
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/20/06 10:52pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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I recall that in the early drafts, Lucas had two different origins for the rise of the Emperor. In the 74 draft, Cos DaShit was elected Emperor and there was the war between the Jedi Bendu and his Sith Knights, which was the Holy War of '06. The Jedi lost and the survivors were forced to go into hiding. In the 75 draft, the Emperor was elected by the Senate. The Jedi discovered that he had used a lot of shady and questionable means to get in office. Just as they rallied against him, Palpatine had many Jedi arrested, tried and executed for treason. Those who escaped went to the Outer Rim to spread the truth about Palpatine and started the Alliance.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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TheCRZA
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/20/06 11:38pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon
The Nixon line from the ROTS commentary baffles me.
He tried to seek a third term? What?
Nixon resigned after the beginning of his second term,
so unless GL is referencing Nixon's stint at the
end of the 50s as Eisenhower's VP, I have no
idea what it is he's talking about.
Any clues?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/21/06 2:52am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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TrueJedi posted:
From viewing just ROTS and not reading the novel, when the Clones show up, it seemed to me that Yoda was starting to win. The crazy smirk was wiped off Palpy's face when Yoda starts shooting the Senate pods right back at him. In fact, Yoda is able to hold off Palpy's lightning and push the pods right back at Palpy. So from what I saw in the film, Yoda was winning.
I got the same impression too especially given the fact that Palpatine is freaked out while he's holding onto that bar on his pod and that the only reason Yoda can't pull himself up unlike Sidious is that the pod Yoda falls onto has no bar.
Bend_Ovi_Kenobi posted:
The Jedi did not forget how to fight force users. They practise fighting each other constantly, they even have tournaments where padawans fight each other.
While the Jedi didn't forget how to fight Force Users there's a difference between what would amount to a no-kill spar and actual combat, as evidenced by the fact that two of Mace's posse go down without even being able to block.
yoshifett posted:
Icestar63 posted:
The jedi do not lie, When they say something to some one it is from there point of view. Only the sith lie, Yoda said it in episode 2. 
The Jedi don't get married either...or attempt to kill unarmed prisoners *cough*Mace*cough* 
But anyway, the Jedi do have a tendency to tell the truth...from a certain point of view... 
Obi-Wan told plenty of these "truths" - I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda's response about the dark side is from a certain point of view as well...
Jedi don't get married, until Luke's Order that is. Anakin is far from a model Jedi and Mace wasn't killing an unarmed prisoner because as evidenced by the fact that he was shooting lightning from his fingers, as Sith Lord is never unarmed.
farrellg posted:
That's only if you ascribe to Lucas' new revisionism of the OT, which he does with frequent and reckless abandonment in the PT. Granted Ben does indeed tell "half" truths to Luke about his father, however regarding Yoda's statement about the Darkside being weaker, that was meant to be interpreted as truth. Notice Yoda didn't hesitate in answering Luke's question as Ben did, nor was he shifting his eyes around. This indicates Yoda was sincere, which makes his encounter with the Emperor in ROTS and running away for no reason even more proposterous. The fact of the matter is if you really want to point to the source of all "half" truths in Star Wars or in most cases just flat out lies, look no further than it's creator George Lucas. He's gone from one side of the fence to the other so many times, I've lost count. It's no wonder people get confused over what's fact and what's fiction.
I see no reason to state that Yoda's statement about the dark side is true. Even if Yoda believes the dark side isn't stronger, he's wrong because the creator says that it is. Its possible that Yoda lied while maintaining a convincing appearance. He's smart enough not to give Luke any signs that he's lying. If Lucas didn't originally intend for the dark side to be stronger, then why was the Emperor able to overpower Luke so easily with force lightning?
Yoda's statement about the Dark Side is true in that the Dark Side is stronger in the sense of being able to kill someone with your will but the Light Side is stronger in that it can give you immortality. On this issue it depends on your definition of stronger. The fact that the Light Side won in the end would also be enough for some people to declare it stronger.
It also shows nothing of the Emperor's strength as Luke realized that he was treading the edge of the Dark Side and was ready to die instead of falling.
farrellg posted:
The Emperor was very specific in his statement. He said that Luke was no match for the power of the dark side, not that he was no match for the Force in general. If Luke threw away his lightsaber in front of an unarmed Jedi, he wouldn't be in danger. He is in danger if he does the same in front of the Emperor, who has lightning at his disposal. This is why the Jedi are "feeble" next to the power of the dark side. They can't do much without a lightsaber.
A fully trained Jedi can do quite a bit without his saber including the fact that in the novelization Luke blocked the Emperor's lightning briefly before being overpowered, so given that a Padawan even though he's the son of the Chosen One can block the powers of the Emperor(assuming you bring the novelizations into it) says that the Dark Side's not as powerful as it is when the Force is out of balance.
darth_frared posted:
mandragora posted:
Such an idea would be incredibly naive (well, if I think about it, it obviously was what the Jedi obviously had expected).
completely clueless they were. their arrogance blinding them to a tee.
they could not even once imagine that the sith would actually have the balls to sit right under their nose and also couldn't even assume they wouldn't be as straightforward as the jedi who just show up on your door step and openly accuse you of something or other, without having any proof whatsoever. just rushing and hastily doing anything at all in order not to appear motionless. *shakes head*
Though to be fair the Order was destroyed minutes later, so it was about to come to a head regardless of how the Jedi acted and I think that was obvious even with the limitations placed on their precognition.
I also assumed that had been how he became Emperor, of course I pictured it more as a war between Mandalorian Clones and the Jedi, I was 9 when TPM came out though, so I was naive.
farrellg posted:
He said: "I must obey my Master." Vader must be referring to the Emperor, since he is Vader's Master. The dark side isn't an animate person, so it can't give Vader direct orders. Vader can only feel tempted to continue using the dark side.
Vader's also in emotional slavery because the Emperor can shut his suit off at anytime via Force Lightning. Vader also seemed resigned to be the Emperor's apprentice until he met Luke and also seemed to basically assume that either Luke or the Emperor would kill him.
There however is also the idea of the Dark Side controlling you that I still think makes sense given how hard it is to turn one back even when they're struggling with the morality of it. I also thought that Vader was addicted to the Dark Side.
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farrellg
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/21/06 10:25am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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Yoda's statement about the Dark Side is true in that the Dark Side is stronger in the sense of being able to kill someone with your will but the Light Side is stronger in that it can give you immortality. On this issue it depends on your definition of stronger. The fact that the Light Side won in the end would also be enough for some people to declare it stronger.
When Lucas and the Emperor talk about power, they are referring to the powers of destruction. This is why Lucas says that the dark side is stronger. It gives the user more lethal powers, such as force lightning.
It also shows nothing of the Emperor's strength as Luke realized that he was treading the edge of the Dark Side and was ready to die instead of falling.
I think it shows the Emperor's strength because he was able to completely overpower Luke with the Force. Luke was defenseless against the power of the dark side.
A fully trained Jedi can do quite a bit without his saber including the fact that in the novelization Luke blocked the Emperor's lightning briefly before being overpowered, so given that a Padawan even though he's the son of the Chosen One can block the powers of the Emperor(assuming you bring the novelizations into it) says that the Dark Side's not as powerful as it is when the Force is out of balance.
The novels rank below the films in canon. If something described in a novel is contradicted by the film, obviously the film stands. Luke didn't block any lightning in the movie, so that part of the novel has been invalidated.
Do you assume that Luke knew lightning could be blocked with a saber or with the Force even though he wasn't able to do it in the movie? If this is the case, then the ROTJ novel might be able to shed some light on how effective the dark side was supposed to be in the OT. You might have a point about the Emperor's powers possibly being blocked.
Vader's also in emotional slavery because the Emperor can shut his suit off at anytime via Force Lightning. Vader also seemed resigned to be the Emperor's apprentice until he met Luke and also seemed to basically assume that either Luke or the Emperor would kill him.
There however is also the idea of the Dark Side controlling you that I still think makes sense given how hard it is to turn one back even when they're struggling with the morality of it. I also thought that Vader was addicted to the Dark Side.
This gave me the impression that Vader fears the Emperor. You bring up a good point about the dark side controlling Vader. It does seem similar to an addiction. This is why Vader feels so much conflict, but can't let go of the dark side right away. He thinks that its "too late" for him to listen to Luke and change his ways.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/21/06 11:21am
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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TheCRZA posted:
That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon
The Nixon line from the ROTS commentary baffles me.
He tried to seek a third term? What?
Nixon resigned after the beginning of his second term,
so unless GL is referencing Nixon's stint at the
end of the 50s as Eisenhower's VP, I have no
idea what it is he's talking about.
Any clues?
I think that prior to the Watergate scandel blowing up like it did, Nixon wanted to run for a third term. And his platform would've been using the war in Vietnam to do that. But because of the political pressure and scandel, he backed away from that notion. Had he continued on without any problems, he might've gotten things changed so that he could stay in office a third term. It should be noted that in a few fictional tales, Nixon never gets in trouble and has remained in office longer than he should. Writer Alan Moore would use this in "Watchmen".
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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JediCouncilMaster
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/21/06 12:47pm
Subject:
RE: How did Palpatine become so powerful?
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It's one of those things where a story needs a Protagonist and an Antagonist. The ultimate "bad guy" and the ultimate "good guy."
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