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Author	Topic: Racism in ROTS
sushimilk Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 1/16/06 9:47pm Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	i think people are misinterpretting the whole topic all together. im referring to racism amongst the characters themselves, and not IRL. when qui gonn said my little blue friend, there wasnt an emphasis on blue, like sids placed the emphasis on GREEN. with that said, we know yoda is green, same as everyone knows mace windu is black. would palps have said to mace...."I've waited a long time for this my black friend"... maybe, maybe not. the point i was trying to make is within the sith characters themselves or even dark jedi, there was hate, that hate is descriptive sometimes as we can see it in the series. of course this isnt a racism factor like in todays world, but a type of prejudice nonetheless. remember anakin as a boy when padme approached and said, "youre a slave?"..he was quite upset. "im a person and my name is anakin" Amongst the star wars fiction mind you...there has to be some personality behind the characters to bring them to life. After all they are all living breathing beings and sure some of them probably think their race is better than the other. but as u can see in rotj...it takes many races to unite against 2 sith. -----signature----- http://www.spaceinsex.com
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ComicDiva Title: FF Romania Public Relations Agent Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 1/16/06 10:18pm Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	I for one haven't seen it in the movies, but it was stated time and time again that Palpatine aloowed only humans to become admirals. Thrawn was the only Grand Admiral that was an alien. That is pretty much the only example of prejudice I can think of, in conection with STar Wars. -----signature----- Return of the Jedi (ultra-condensed version) Darth Vader: Luke, come to the dark side. Luke: No. Darth Vader: Your goodness has redeemed me. Die emperor scum! THE END
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acrovader Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 1/16/06 10:40pm Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	Racism in ROTS? Jesse Jackson could not be reached for comment. -----signature----- Howard Dean is the gift that keeps giving: He's making Reagan Democrats by the gazillions.
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/16/06 11:54pm Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	If we see one more off topic joke, we will start handing out bans. Any takers? "Don't mess with the bull or you'll get the horns." -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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MystikalMaceWindu Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 1/17/06 1:31am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	sushimilk posted: i think people are misinterpretting the whole topic all together. im referring to racism amongst the characters themselves, and not IRL. when qui gonn said my little blue friend, there wasnt an emphasis on blue, like sids placed the emphasis on GREEN. with that said, we know yoda is green, same as everyone knows mace windu is black. would palps have said to mace...."I've waited a long time for this my black friend"... maybe, maybe not. the point i was trying to make is within the sith characters themselves or even dark jedi, there was hate, that hate is descriptive sometimes as we can see it in the series. of course this isnt a racism factor like in todays world, but a type of prejudice nonetheless. remember anakin as a boy when padme approached and said, "youre a slave?"..he was quite upset. "im a person and my name is anakin" Amongst the star wars fiction mind you...there has to be some personality behind the characters to bring them to life. After all they are all living breathing beings and sure some of them probably think their race is better than the other. but as u can see in rotj...it takes many races to unite against 2 sith. It's there, but it's not really addressed. There's definitely animosity and hatred between some characters, and between species and such. In a similar way, there's racial tension and conflict right below the surface in all societies, and sometimes it doesn't take much to reveal it. So it wouldn't be all too different to know that there are class, race, gender, species conflicts in the Star Wars universe. any time you have differences between people, all it takes is ignorance to spark racial conflict. -----signature----- Yoda and Mace Windu in 2008! A Unifying Force!
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so-fly Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 1/17/06 1:57am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	RS77 posted: What are you guys 2 years old? Is it recess or something? You should ask yourself that same exact question.
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dont_be_a_vaderhater Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 1/17/06 5:35am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	so-fly posted: RS77 posted: What are you guys 2 years old? Is it recess or something? You should ask yourself that same exact question. Well, the comments I was talking about have been deleted by the mods. They were relentlessly picking on GL and his daughter being fat. I'm a big mofo, so I took offence... -----signature----- the waterboy.... the boy with the bucket.... if ya did'nt want the job.... you should not a took it
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/17/06 5:47am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	He's not around to answer, and won't be coming back anytime soon, so let's get back to serious discussion, shall we? -----signature----- DT421
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dont_be_a_vaderhater Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 1/17/06 5:51am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	rhonderoo posted: He's not around to answer, and won't be coming back anytime soon, so let's get back to serious discussion, shall we? sorry, I'm good now. and i already made my comments on the topic, so I'm out! -----signature----- the waterboy.... the boy with the bucket.... if ya did'nt want the job.... you should not a took it
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RebelScum77 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 1/17/06 11:25am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	dont_be_a_vaderhater posted: so-fly posted: RS77 posted: What are you guys 2 years old? Is it recess or something? You should ask yourself that same exact question. Well, the comments I was talking about have been deleted by the mods. They were relentlessly picking on GL and his daughter being fat. I'm a big mofo, so I took offence... As dont_be_a_vaderhater has said, HE posted the "recess" quote, not I. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Now let's get back on topic. -----signature----- CHEAP SLIT!!
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Mos_Eisley Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 1/17/06 7:44pm Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	Maybe if Quentin Tarantino or Spike Lee was directing a Star Wars film, race would definitely be an issue at the forefront with the dialogue. But you can make any kind of argument and then select specific things from any piece of art or circumstance and manipulate it to support your argument. The media and lawyers do this kind of thing for a living. But Irvin Kershner did say outright on the ESB commentary that the bad guys were generally supposed to be British and the good guys Americans. I'll bet Star Wars fans in the UK loved that one when they watched the ESB DVD with the commentary although the connection between empires and the British isn't really far-fetched in history, not to let America off the hook with regard to parallels to imperialism either. -----signature----- "Who's manning the Internet?!" -Stan Smith from American Dad at a Sci-Fi Convention
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Jobi-Won Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 1/18/06 12:19am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	Lol this is rediculus..how about some people just use their head and this Thread wouldn't be so long. First of all there are MANY races and aliens in Star Wars. I think thats obvious heh. When Anakin chopped off Mace's hand, he did it because (again lets use our head) hmm..why would he? Oh Maybe becuase Mace was very stern with Anakin and stuck to his ways. Mace wasn't really willing to bargan much. When he thought something should be done, he does it. No MATTER WHAT, he was going to make Anakin stay in the coucil chambers, and if Anakin didn't chop off Mace's hand, as ou can see from what he tells Anakin that "He is to dangerous, and must be killed (Sidious)" judging by Mace's history, he was going to kill Sidz eitherway. So out of desperation, Anakin chopped Mace's hand off. As you recall Mace was kind've mean to Anakin as well, so when Anakin chpped Mace's hand off, its like a kid finally having enough of their parents dissaplin that might be too strict, and act out earationally. You get it? And also with Yoda, Sidious is evil. If the "green" comment was meant to insult, then so be it. Ummm...is he not the ultimate evil? lol common now. Why are you going to waste time saying that their was racism in Revenge of the Sith? lol like...seriously? What are you really mad at...
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LeeKenobi Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/18/06 9:38am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	ComicDiva posted: Forget about racism, where the hell are all the fat people in Star Wars? We only get Jabba the Hutt and he's disgusting! Orn Free Taa. Declan Mulholland (aka, the Jabba stand-in) Porkins. Boss Nass.
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Tyranus_the_Hutt Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 1/18/06 10:39am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	one point i would like to make is of course there are many races in the star wars series. no mistake about that. but surely there has to exist some sort of supremecy thoughts amongst some of the races, creeds and colors. If you were to consider all of the myriad hypothetical variables in a universe such as the one in which this story unfolds, then yes, I imagine there would be some prevalent examples of ethnic prejudice. However, while there is intercultural hostility in the "Star Wars" films, it is not based upon any specific, underlying racial bias; the conflict is more overt, incorporating very basic concerns such as pragmatism and self-preservation. For instance, the Gungans in "Episode I" represented a kind of relative primitivism that sat in diametric opposition to the aggressive modernity that characterized the society on Theed – this is an 'extension,' if you will, of one of the salient conflicts in "Return of the Jedi" in which an 'undeveloped' culture (the Ewoks) overcomes a technologically advanced Imperial force. If anything, the issue in "Phantom Menace" was that of two disparate societies overcoming cultural differences to join forces in order to defeat a common enemy. I dont want to make this a black or white issue, but let just state that if you look at the obvious, in no way did anakin seem to respect mace. Let’s examine this in more practical sense, using examples from the films. Lucas made it clear in "Episode I" that there was tension between the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon, who rather aggressively sought to gain permission to train Anakin; the Council’s misgivings about Skywalker’s potential appointment is evident immediately, and indeed Mace is seen as being in ardent opposition to Qui-Gon's request. This sets up a sub-plot concerning Anakin’s tenuous relationship with the Council, which is made even more apparent as he voices displeasure over the restrictions of his lifestyle and the difficulty in having to adhere to an impractical code of conduct in "Episode II." This detail is exploited more fully by director Lucas in "Episode III," where he contextualizes Anakin’s confusion by creating a political ambiguity in which both the Jedi and the Sith seem to be equally corrupt...from a certain point of view. Therefore, the palpable strain that exists between Anakin and Mace can be connected to the increasing level of uncertainty that develops within the environment that they inhabit; if it is clear that Windu did not fully trust Anakin before, then this is only embellished as the situation becomes more extreme. There is, however, a scene in which Anakin has an opportunity to gain Mace’s trust; when Anakin informs the Jedi Master of Palpatine’s true identity, Windu says to him, "If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here." Anakin knows intellectually that he should obey this directive, but ultimately discards morality as he becomes undone by the penetrating disquiet of his own fear; the Chancellor offers him an entreaty which will potentially enable Anakin to save his wife from death, and his overwhelming apprehension at the prospect of losing her transcends the various other ethical issues involved in abandoning the Jedi Order, etc. maybe not because he was black, but because perhaps he was different?? why did he feel compelled to talk to yoda about his nightmares instead of mace? That doesn’t make any sense at all. If Anakin avoided Mace because he was different from himself, then why did he choose to approach Yoda, who is even more dissimilar? yet he felt it better to tell mace about his discovery of palps being a sith and not hologramming a message to yoda instead. whats the issue with that? Yoda was overseeing the battle on Kashyyk, whereas Mace was on Coruscant. Since Mace was a Jedi Master positioned in close proximity to Anakin at the moment in which he learned of Palpatine’s true identity, logic would dictate that Anakin seek out the most esteemed Jedi located closest to him. mace had his own choice of words. " i dont trust him". pretty sad when your own master says such words, and you know anakin despises him for it. Anakin is at odds with Mace because he is representative of the Jedi Council, an order that just appointed Skywalker to the Council, yet refused to make him a master. That seems like a plausible source of conflict, does it not? So with that in mind, both sids and anakin seemed to have a more personal look about the whole Mace situation if you look really hard at the expressions. not in the im a sith and you are jedi kind of way. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. 1 example too would be that all wookies become slaves or something to that affect.from what we have seen, all sith have been human or humanoid, so were they predjudice against non humanoid races and specific colors? The Empire is essentially a totalitarian regime whose goal is to quell any and all opposition so that its political structure can be maintained. The rights of the individual are superseded by the imposed collective adherence to a singular ideological paradigm, which is enforced through more extreme means, such as violence, propaganda, and so on. In the context of this story, Palpatine, who is of course orchestrating these machinations, seeks to eliminate any and all who oppose him, regardless of their cultural background; the Jedi Order, for instance, is comprised of beings who come from a variety of ethnic distinctions, and yet Palpatine is clearly interested in purging their entire order, on the basis that they provide the most obvious threat to his reign. "my little ((green)) friend" that was a slur, and not something sids used to be descriptive... I don’t know; I tend to view it as a (excuse the pun) colorful bit of dialogue. The probing for racist subtext is getting to be quite strained. I think the issue is not so much is ROTS racist, but rather, how does ROTS (and all movies for that matter) reflect the prejudices/biases of the filmmaker and of the society that it springs from. That is a good point, and yet all films could be classified in this manner (see my next paragraph). We're all prejudiced in some fashion. That doesn't mean we're all racist, but we all have biases, and those biases can easily become prejudices. A bias is not necessarily a bad thing, but given its current context it has developed a rather negative colloquial connotation; inevitably, aspect of a person’s character, including their biases, will inform the specific minutia that comprises a story, its characters, their presentation, etc. I don’t want to get into a treatise on either the psychological machinery of racism, or the 'auteur theory,' but that is clearly where this is headed. Some forms of racial prejudice are subtle, implied, others are blatant and obvious. Yes, absolutely. Hollywood still runs on a racist mentality. At least it's ignorant. I think it’s rather more complicated than that, although there is some truth in what you say. Without getting into a tangential political discussion, citing specific examples, I can’t elucidate my perspective on this matter; needless to say, this thread is not about Hollywood in general, but about ROTS, and therefore such comments would be off-topic. But, back to the main point, is ROTS racist? I don't think it's blatantly so. Biased? Yes. Contains prejudices? Yes. But racist? I would, for the most part, say it's not. It’s difficult for me to respond to these comments without having more to work with, but I can say, without equivocation, that "Revenge of the Sith" is not a racist film. Now, TPM, I think wears stereotypes rather proudly, and has racist elements. I strongly disagree with this sentiment; if you want to see racism in film then I suggest you start by looking at films such as D.W. Griffith’s "Birth of a Nation," Fritz Hippler’s "The Eternal Jew," Riefenstahl’s "Triumph of the Will," Alan Crosland’s "The Jazz Singer," Harve Foster and Wilfred Jackson’s "Song of the South," and so on. I recognize that all of the aforementioned titles are pre-1950’s productions; a more contemporary film that is blatantly racist, in addition to being misogynistic, heterosexist, etc., is Skip Woods' vile 1998 feature, "Thursday." Those are films that 'wear stereotypes rather proudly,' as you put it. "The Phantom Menace" is neither racist, nor about racism. -----signature----- "The screen is a magic medium. It has such power that it can retain interest as it conveys emotions and moods that no other art form can hope to tackle." - Stanley Kubrick
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MystikalMaceWindu Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 1/18/06 11:32am Subject: RE: Racism in ROTS
	Mos_Eisley posted: Maybe if Quentin Tarantino or Spike Lee was directing a Star Wars film, race would definitely be an issue at the forefront with the dialogue. But you can make any kind of argument and then select specific things from any piece of art or circumstance and manipulate it to support your argument. The media and lawyers do this kind of thing for a living. But Irvin Kershner did say outright on the ESB commentary that the bad guys were generally supposed to be British and the good guys Americans. I'll bet Star Wars fans in the UK loved that one when they watched the ESB DVD with the commentary although the connection between empires and the British isn't really far-fetched in history, not to let America off the hook with regard to parallels to imperialism either. You make some points I agree with, but as stated by the person who started this thread, we're supposed to be talking about racism WITHIN the Star Wars world, and not how the movie is reflective of the biases, prejudices of the society that made it. Because ALL movies reflect pre-existing biases, prejudices, etc. etc. Now, no, not all movies are racist. But all are prejudiced and/or biased in some way. It's nearly impossible not to be. We all have our own personal tastes, biases and perspectives on the world, based on our own learnings and experiences. -----signature----- Yoda and Mace Windu in 2008! A Unifying Force!
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