Tyranus_the_Hutt posted:one point i would like to make is of course there are many races in the star wars series. no mistake about that. but surely there has to exist some sort of supremecy thoughts amongst some of the races, creeds and colors. If you were to consider all of the myriad hypothetical variables in a universe such as the one in which this story unfolds, then yes, I imagine there would be some prevalent examples of ethnic prejudice. However, while there is intercultural hostility in the "Star Wars" films, it is not based upon any specific, underlying racial bias; the conflict is more overt, incorporating very basic concerns such as pragmatism and self-preservation. For instance, the Gungans in "Episode I" represented a kind of relative primitivism that sat in diametric opposition to the aggressive modernity that characterized the society on Theed – this is an 'extension,' if you will, of one of the salient conflicts in "Return of the Jedi" in which an 'undeveloped' culture (the Ewoks) overcomes a technologically advanced Imperial force. If anything, the issue in "Phantom Menace" was that of two disparate societies overcoming cultural differences to join forces in order to defeat a common enemy. I dont want to make this a black or white issue, but let just state that if you look at the obvious, in no way did anakin seem to respect mace. Let’s examine this in more practical sense, using examples from the films. Lucas made it clear in "Episode I" that there was tension between the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon, who rather aggressively sought to gain permission to train Anakin; the Council’s misgivings about Skywalker’s potential appointment is evident immediately, and indeed Mace is seen as being in ardent opposition to Qui-Gon's request. This sets up a sub-plot concerning Anakin’s tenuous relationship with the Council, which is made even more apparent as he voices displeasure over the restrictions of his lifestyle and the difficulty in having to adhere to an impractical code of conduct in "Episode II." This detail is exploited more fully by director Lucas in "Episode III," where he contextualizes Anakin’s confusion by creating a political ambiguity in which both the Jedi and the Sith seem to be equally corrupt...from a certain point of view. Therefore, the palpable strain that exists between Anakin and Mace can be connected to the increasing level of uncertainty that develops within the environment that they inhabit; if it is clear that Windu did not fully trust Anakin before, then this is only embellished as the situation becomes more extreme. There is, however, a scene in which Anakin has an opportunity to gain Mace’s trust; when Anakin informs the Jedi Master of Palpatine’s true identity, Windu says to him, "If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here." Anakin knows intellectually that he should obey this directive, but ultimately discards morality as he becomes undone by the penetrating disquiet of his own fear; the Chancellor offers him an entreaty which will potentially enable Anakin to save his wife from death, and his overwhelming apprehension at the prospect of losing her transcends the various other ethical issues involved in abandoning the Jedi Order, etc. maybe not because he was black, but because perhaps he was different?? why did he feel compelled to talk to yoda about his nightmares instead of mace? That doesn’t make any sense at all. If Anakin avoided Mace because he was different from himself, then why did he choose to approach Yoda, who is even more dissimilar? yet he felt it better to tell mace about his discovery of palps being a sith and not hologramming a message to yoda instead. whats the issue with that? Yoda was overseeing the battle on Kashyyk, whereas Mace was on Coruscant. Since Mace was a Jedi Master positioned in close proximity to Anakin at the moment in which he learned of Palpatine’s true identity, logic would dictate that Anakin seek out the most esteemed Jedi located closest to him. mace had his own choice of words. " i dont trust him". pretty sad when your own master says such words, and you know anakin despises him for it. Anakin is at odds with Mace because he is representative of the Jedi Council, an order that just appointed Skywalker to the Council, yet refused to make him a master. That seems like a plausible source of conflict, does it not? So with that in mind, both sids and anakin seemed to have a more personal look about the whole Mace situation if you look really hard at the expressions. not in the im a sith and you are jedi kind of way. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. 1 example too would be that all wookies become slaves or something to that affect.from what we have seen, all sith have been human or humanoid, so were they predjudice against non humanoid races and specific colors? The Empire is essentially a totalitarian regime whose goal is to quell any and all opposition so that its political structure can be maintained. The rights of the individual are superseded by the imposed collective adherence to a singular ideological paradigm, which is enforced through more extreme means, such as violence, propaganda, and so on. In the context of this story, Palpatine, who is of course orchestrating these machinations, seeks to eliminate any and all who oppose him, regardless of their cultural background; the Jedi Order, for instance, is comprised of beings who come from a variety of ethnic distinctions, and yet Palpatine is clearly interested in purging their entire order, on the basis that they provide the most obvious threat to his reign. "my little ((green)) friend" that was a slur, and not something sids used to be descriptive... I don’t know; I tend to view it as a (excuse the pun) colorful bit of dialogue. The probing for racist subtext is getting to be quite strained. I think the issue is not so much is ROTS racist, but rather, how does ROTS (and all movies for that matter) reflect the prejudices/biases of the filmmaker and of the society that it springs from. That is a good point, and yet all films could be classified in this manner (see my next paragraph). We're all prejudiced in some fashion. That doesn't mean we're all racist, but we all have biases, and those biases can easily become prejudices. A bias is not necessarily a bad thing, but given its current context it has developed a rather negative colloquial connotation; inevitably, aspect of a person’s character, including their biases, will inform the specific minutia that comprises a story, its characters, their presentation, etc. I don’t want to get into a treatise on either the psychological machinery of racism, or the 'auteur theory,' but that is clearly where this is headed. Some forms of racial prejudice are subtle, implied, others are blatant and obvious. Yes, absolutely. Hollywood still runs on a racist mentality. At least it's ignorant. I think it’s rather more complicated than that, although there is some truth in what you say. Without getting into a tangential political discussion, citing specific examples, I can’t elucidate my perspective on this matter; needless to say, this thread is not about Hollywood in general, but about ROTS, and therefore such comments would be off-topic. But, back to the main point, is ROTS racist? I don't think it's blatantly so. Biased? Yes. Contains prejudices? Yes. But racist? I would, for the most part, say it's not. It’s difficult for me to respond to these comments without having more to work with, but I can say, without equivocation, that "Revenge of the Sith" is not a racist film. Now, TPM, I think wears stereotypes rather proudly, and has racist elements. I strongly disagree with this sentiment; if you want to see racism in film then I suggest you start by looking at films such as D.W. Griffith’s "Birth of a Nation," Fritz Hippler’s "The Eternal Jew," Riefenstahl’s "Triumph of the Will," Alan Crosland’s "The Jazz Singer," Harve Foster and Wilfred Jackson’s "Song of the South," and so on. I recognize that all of the aforementioned titles are pre-1950’s productions; a more contemporary film that is blatantly racist, in addition to being misogynistic, heterosexist, etc., is Skip Woods' vile 1998 feature, "Thursday." Those are films that 'wear stereotypes rather proudly,' as you put it. "The Phantom Menace" is neither racist, nor about racism.
Jobi-Won posted: Why are you going to waste time saying that their was racism in Revenge of the Sith? lol like...seriously? What are you really mad at...
DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR posted:Racism is heavily involved in the Prequels, but only concerning humans and the alien races. If you notice, all the seperatists were alien beings, and Palpatine made this no accident, as he was trying to eliminate the alien presence in the senate by seperating them, and making them start a war that would make all alien species look bad. That's why he chose humans as clones, and enlisted only humans in his armies. It may be a forced limitation back then, but it's one that Lucas wrote in regardless of it. The scene at the end with Palpatine, Tarkin and Vader proved to me that the Empire had divided and excluded the aliens from their new order.
Tyranus_the_Hutt posted:These are all opinions. Yours, mine, others'. Obviously, that is the case; however, this is a discussion board in which we are encouraged to debate various issues, and it is fine to do that as long as we remain respectful of each others' opinions. I am sorry if my comments in the previous post made it seem as though I was being disrespectful of your opinion; I didn't intend for that to be the case, but I can see where one might think that. I should have re-structured a few of my sentences. I find elements of racist stereotypes in TPM, and that's my reading of it, as it's yours that you don't see any racism in it. I'm a believer in the individual's own personal reading of a movie, and the freedom in them having such views. Of course; I apologize as I didn’t mean to undermine your opinion, but based upon the very scant amount of detail provided to support it, I wished to challenge it. That does not mean that I do not have respect for you or your opinion. Now, I do agree that perhaps I overstated the case that TPM proudly wears them, but I still do think that it does have them. Jar Jar is a streamlined version of the minstrel, but made for kids. This is where we can have a more fruitful discourse, by addressing the specific issues entailed in alleged stereotypical constructs. However, since you have not provided specific arguments aside from a broad generalization, then I will cite a different source in response. Here is an excellent article written some years ago by a man named Michael Wong, in which he addresses and debunks the allegations of racism in TPM (from stardestroyer.net). I don't agree with all of his remarks, but overall, I do think the following is worth a read. There is a quiet movement afoot to brand George Lucas a racist because of "racist" stereotypes that are supposedly found in TPM. The people leading this movement may feel that it's a huge burning issue, but I find it amusing that in spite of their aggressive publicity, most ordinary people have never given the idea a second thought. If they've heard of it at all, the average person has dismissed it immediately as a joke. What is this "controversy"? It basically centres on two alien species in TPM: The Neimoidians and the Gungans. The same argument has been made in dozens of entertainment industry articles with virtually no variation, so I will paraphrase the argument here rather than quoting one of the articles verbatim: If you watch TPM, you can clearly hear that the Jar-Jar Binks character (and for that matter, the entire Gungan species) speaks with a Caribbean accent, in an obvious 18th century slave dialect. It isn't just him- the entire Gungan species speaks this same broken dialect. The broken dialect suggests to the viewer that the entire Gungan race is under-educated, and the imagery of them living in the sea, beneath the land-dwelling, well-educated Naboo people is so racist that it is unbearable. The Gungans (blacks) are uneducated and live in the dark depths, while the Naboo people (whites) are highly educated artisans who live in beautiful cities in the sun. The characteristically lackadaisical gait and floppy ears of the Gungans merely reinforce the stereotype. It doesn't really matter whether this horrific imagery is deliberate or intentional- the point is that it exists, and George Lucas should be ashamed. The Gungans aren't the only racist stereotype in TPM- the Neimoidians are even worse! Start with the accent- they all speak in an obviously Asian-accented broken dialect which sounds like Charlie Chan, in a not-so-nice homage to the common "Yellow Menace" motif of the 1930's era serials from which George Lucas drew his inspiration. But the stereotype doesn't stop there- look at their appearance and behaviour. With their slitted eyes, flat faces, duplicitous nature, and economic aggression, they are clearly meant to represent one of the big Japanese corporations- is it Toyota? Sony? Toshiba? Does it really matter which corporation it is? The point is that TPM promoted horrifically racist stereotypes of Asian-Americans. What kind of message does this send to our children? It teaches them that these slit-eyed, heavily accented, deceitful business thugs represent Asians- how much more harmful could a stereotype get? I'll start with the second "stereotype", since my racial background gives me an unusual perspective on this issue. First, I would like to ask you, the reader, the question: did you see the Neimoidians as Asian? If you did, then I think you need to ask yourself some hard questions regarding your own racism. Frankly, the instant I hear a white person telling me that my race is being insulted in TPM, I get pretty damned suspicious. Wouldn't I have noticed such an insult if it were there? I am not known for blithely ignoring racial attacks upon myself. Why then, did I fail to see that the Neimoidians were an "obvious" Asian stereotype? Why did I need a white person to explain the insult to me? The answer is simple: I didn't see the Neimoidians as an Asian stereotype because they bear no resemblance whatsoever to Asians. Let's examine all of the imaginary Asian stereotypes in the Neimoidian species: 1. Accent: They claim the Neimoidians have an Asian accent. Well, many of my relatives come from Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc., and none of them sound remotely like the Neimoidians. In my opinion, the Neimoidians have a bizarre accent but it is not Asian. But what would I know about Asian accents- I'm just the son of Asian immigrants, and not a white Hollywood film critic. 2. Appearance: My eyes aren't "slitted". My children's eyes aren't "slitted." My parents' eyes aren't "slitted." Asian eyes do not bear signs of reptilian horizontal "slits"- our pupils are round just like everyone else's. And the last time I checked, I do in fact possess a nose, as do all of my relatives. We Asians are not flat-faced, slit-eyed freaks! If you think that we are, and that the Neimoidians therefore represent us, then you are a racist. 3. Behaviour: Frankly, I find it utterly abominable that anyone would even think of associating the Neimoidians behaviour with Asians. Are we to believe that any time we see a duplicitous alien species, it must represent Asians? Are we to believe that any time we see economic aggressors, they must be Asians? Anyone who instinctively associates duplicitous and economically aggressive behaviour with Asians is a racist, just as bad as the sort of scum who thinks that we're all slit-eyed freaks. As for the Gungans supposedly being a "black stereotype", I can only speak for myself as a human being, and not as a member of the race which is supposedly being slighted (although my informed perspective on the supposedly Asian stereotype of the Neimoidians leaves me doubtful of the anti-Gungan allegations, to say the least). But I will point out the following: 1. Accent: I have only known a half-dozen people in my life who grew up in the Caribbean, but none of those people sounded like Jar-Jar Binks to me. The young actor who portrayed Jar-Jar Binks happened to be from the Caribbean- are the thought police using this fact in their allegations? From the Salem witch-hunt style of their attacks, I wouldn't be surprised. 2. Dialect: I have never met a black person who spoke in Jar-Jar's dialect. I don't understand where this stereotype comes from- if it exists, I can only assume that it comes from a very obscure source. If people have to explain the Stepin' Fetchit stereotype (and to be honest, I'm still not sure who Stepin' Fetchit is, or what obscure piece of literature he came from), then is it really a stereotype? How can a stereotype be a stereotype if no one knows about it? 3. Education: I don't know whether the Gungans are meant to be uneducated, or whether their native language is simply such that it affects the way in which they tend to speak Basic (the fictional language of the Star Wars universe). Frankly, the former sounds implausible to me, but regardless, the entire education angle is yet another product of racism. If you instinctively associate poor education levels with black people, then what does this reveal about you? 4. Gait: I had no idea that the Gungans walked like black people until I read one of those articles "explaining" the resemblance. This may sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but if someone has to explain to you that the resemblance exists, then maybe it doesn't exist. In my experience, black people don't walk any more "lackadaisically" than anyone else. I don't wish to be presumptuous in speaking on behalf of another visible minority, but I can only imagine that if I were a black person, I would be rather offended at the notion that lackadaisical movement is an intrinsic characteristic of black people. 5. Floppy ears: It is a testament to the rabid intensity of the politically correct thought police that they would somehow find a way of making Jar-Jar's floppy creature ears into a stereotype of black people (by associating them with a certain Caribbean hairstyle). How ridiculous is this? Shall we institute a moratorium on all floppy-eared children's toys? From the sounds of it, there are an awful lot of stuffed animals and children's toys out there which have now become "racist." 6. Ahmed Best: The young black actor who played Jar-Jar Binks is in the uncomfortable position of defending his portrayal against politically correct thought police who claim that he portrayed a racist stereotype directed against his own race. He claims that he was given wide latitude to control the character's physical mannerisms and speech patterns- his detractors retort that he is simply spouting the Lucasfilm party line and lying to everyone. Supposedly, he's part of a widespread conspiracy ... yeah, sure. This manufactured "controversy" is based not on an attempt to combat racial stereotypes, but rather, on a wholesale surrender to those racial stereotypes. Think about it- one has to accept these stereotypes in order to see the resemblance! Some racists believe that all black people are illiterate, lazy, stupid, and slovenly. Some racists believe that Asians are flat-faced, slit-eyed, dishonest economic predators. What have the politically correct thought police done here? They have taken these stereotypes, accepted them, and then used this acceptance to declare that the reverse connection is true! If black people are illiterate, lazy, stupid and slovenly, then an illiterate, lazy, stupid and slovenly sci-fi creature must therefore be a black person! If Asians are flat-faced, slit-eyed business predators, then a flat-faced, slit-eyed business predator sci-fi creature must therefore be an Asian! TPM doesn't offend me- these critics offend me. If someone portrays an Asian human being or a black human being in a negative light, then that might be offensive, depending on how it is handled. But when someone makes a fictional creature which is totally non-human in appearance, and someone decides to anthropomorphise its physical and behavioural characteristics in order to associate it with a particular human race, then he or she is simply demonstrating acceptance and reversal of the very racial stereotypes that he or she is supposedly trying to fight. I recently saw a comedian on television who was joking about this very issue. He said that Jar-Jar Binks was obviously a terrible racial stereotype directed at Jamaicans, but he was curious as to why Germans had never complained about the robots, or why Italians never complained about Chewbacca. He got a big laugh, but he subtly made the same point I'm trying to make: such tenuous reverse racial associations reveal more about your own racism than they do about the subject matter. Yes, there are some blatant racist movies out there. And many, still made today, that are driven by racial biases/prejudices. Some racist prejudices are blatant, others more subtle, but yet still there. Or ones that steer clear of racial views, but then a scene drops in that makes me cringe -- did they HAVE TO put that in? I am not disagreeing with your assessment here, but my difficulty is in the generalizations which do not enable us to have a reasonable conversation about the specific complaints that you might have about a portion of a given movie. I am well aware of the various criticisms directed towards the alleged racial stereotypes that are said to exist in TPM, and would be happy to discuss them at length if you so desire. Now, you may not see it that way, that's fine -- you have your own set of experiences and lessons in life that lead you to see things your way, and I see them in mine. But I aim to steer from making grand, all-defining proclamations about what is or isn't in the movies. Again, we all have our own personal perspectives and tastes. I didn’t mean to come across as overbearing or rude, and I apologize if I did. You may like some characters, I may dislike them, and vice versa. Of course - and believe me, I am not an overwhelming supporter of Jar Jar, though I do not despise him as some do. I aim to avoid getting into "I like vanilla, I can't believe you like strawberry!" type arguments. I respect your opinion, Mace, and once again did not intend to seem imperious or be dismissive of your commentary.
Ruthio posted:im pretty sure the chacrters in starWars have no idea what racism is. Im also pretty sure Anakin sees a dark skinned human being, as simply that. He sees Mace as a dark skinned human and not a black man or a nigero. Their was no slavery, and their was no civil rights movement. The only reason you see humans as empirial solderes is because the movied are writen by a human. A human jedi is the chosen one, a human is the main character, Anakin kills human younglings in the tmple raid. Lucas knows the audience and the fans can relate to humans more then to [b]aliens. When was the last time a unhuman looking Alien was the main star of a Scifi fanchise? A human being wrote the movies and thus humans are main characters, and the main villains mostly. Its like the harry potter books, a brittish writer thus a brittish main cast of characters.[/b]
