CJedi72 posted:

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My biggest beef with ROTS is the whole turn scene. Not what Anakin was doing it for, but the way the whole scene is done, to me it is just awful. The mace fight is bad cause McDiarmid doesn't look good fighting, even though they use a double sometimes. Palps frying his face is totally stupid cause why wouldn't he stop?

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CJedi72 posted:

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And then him yelling "Ultimate power!" or something like that as he is frying Mace.

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CJedi72 posted:

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Then the whole turn scene is just underwhelming, "What have I done" is just so wrong for that whole sequence. If you're gonna make him turn George, for god sakes just make him turn to darkside, he gets redeemed in ROTJ, so we don't need confused Darth Vader now, when he turns he should be evil!

ROTS is really good movie, but the turn scene is worse now, cause in the commentary Lucas say he originally shot it for the scene when Palps tells Anakin he is the sith, but Lucas didn't like it cause he thought Anakin turned too quick. So Lucas then does it in the next scene!

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CJedi72 posted:

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That scene was the key to the movie, and the prequels, and if Lucas couldn't sell me on that scene, what the hell is the point of watching three movies to see him to turn to Darth Vader? Lucas directed it, and I blame him 100% why many fans think the scene is bad.

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darth-sinister posted:

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He attacked Mace to kill him. He didn't care if his face was destroyed. He wants him dead and the boy on his side. Period. When that failed, he pleaded weakness and used it to get the job done.

At the point he was throwing lightning at Mace was where he was faking to get Anakin to turn, so he wasn't try to kill Mace at that point. He wanted Anakin to stop him, and that would be the trap, but it is still stupid he would let himself get electrocuted in the face, when he could have stopped and still said, "I am too old Anakin, see the Jedi are plotting to kill me!" Lucas couldn't figure out another way for Palps face to look like he does in ROTJ, so he went with Palps doing it to himself. Atleast in the EU, it was the darkside that made his face look like he did ROTJ, that was actually pretty cool idea, and I hate the EU.


Well it's a final insult. The Dark Side is all about power and what it can do for you. He's telling Mace that he's not weak. He's now stronger than ever. The Jedi believe that the Dark Side gives you nothing, but the Sith believe it will give you everything. All you need is power.

Lucas made The Emperor too over the top in ROTS, in ROTJ he was subtle but just as menacing, when he is yelling 'ultimate power' and cackling against Yoda, I thought it was the Riddler from Batman 89'!



"He didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he realizing that with Mace dead he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says 'Yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive. Then he (Sidious) says, 'Ok, I’ll do that but now you have to go and kill all the Jedi. Leave none alive or they will come back and get us - even the kids.'"

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

The part where Anakin questions what he has done shows that he still has good in him. That he didn't want no one to die over this. But now he has to do what Palpatine wants, because there is no turning back from this.

Again, Lucas keeps hammering us over the head that he is conflicted, like the audience is stupid. The whole point of ROTJ is to show he is conflicted, that is the movie to show this. He didn't do that in ANH & ESB because he was just evil. When Anakin turned, he should have turned, and do it without Lucas keep showing that he is conflicted. We get to Mustafar and again Lucas shows him crying right before Padme shows up, WE GET IT, he's conflicted! Lucas was so afraid of showing Anakin as the monster like Vader in ANH & ESB, and they would love the character cause he was a bad ass and forget he was a person. Lucas has said repeatedly that people fell in love with Darth Vader the bad guy, and it was tough in the later movies to get them to see him differently that he was a tragic figure. So by hammering the point of him being conflicted, I feel he did a big disservice to the whole turn and him being Darth Vader in ROTS.

CJedi72 posted:

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That scene was the key to the movie, and the prequels, and if Lucas couldn't sell me on that scene, what the hell is the point of watching three movies to see him to turn to Darth Vader? Lucas directed it, and I blame him 100% why many fans think the scene is bad.

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Lucas changed it because his friends (Speilberg, Howard, Coppola) told him to change it. That it wasn't working the first way and that he had to do it this way. They told him that we needed to see his anguish and indecision. Afterwards, he came to a decision.

"So I had to ask myself, what was I trying to say and didn't I say it? Did it just get missed or is it not there? I had to look at it very hard. I had to ask myself, 'Is this how the audience is going to react?' Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So I may lose a certain demographic - maybe, maybe not."

--George Lucas, The Making of ROTS, page 188.

And that's how he came to this scene at the end.

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Achilles_of_Edmonton posted:

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the oddly quick turn of Anakin

HOw was his turn oddly quick. It took 22 years for him to turn and it did not take palce til near the end of the movie. Did not seem quick to me. ANd it seemed he was battling with himself with what to do after he was in the Jedi temple wating for Windu. SO it did not seem quick to me.

You think it's a coincidence that the better Star Wars films aren't directed by Luca

Well A New Hope was directed by Lucas and that is considered the best by some. So you are wrong there. ANd I love the PT. More going on, more complex. Better seemless F/X. Better story.

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YoungAngus posted:

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If anything, Kirsh should of directed AOTC. He did great with developing the characters and developing the romance between Han and Leia and AOTC needed that kind of character development most. It would of been nice to see what Speilberg did with Episodes 1 or 3.

I am the biggest PT fan though so it doesnt matter to me.

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CJedi72 posted:

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At the point he was throwing lightning at Mace was where he was faking to get Anakin to turn, so he wasn't try to kill Mace at that point. He wanted Anakin to stop him, and that would be the trap, but it is still stupid he would let himself get electrocuted in the face, when he could have stopped and still said, "I am too old Anakin, see the Jedi are plotting to kill me!"

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CJedi72 posted:

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Lucas couldn't figure out another way for Palps face to look like he does in ROTJ, so he went with Palps doing it to himself. Atleast in the EU, it was the darkside that made his face look like he did ROTJ, that was actually pretty cool idea, and I hate the EU.

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CJedi72 posted:

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Lucas made The Emperor too over the top in ROTS, in ROTJ he was subtle but just as menacing, when he is yelling 'ultimate power' and cackling against Yoda, I thought it was the Riddler from Batman 89'!

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CJedi72 posted:

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Again, Lucas keeps hammering us over the head that he is conflicted, like the audience is stupid. The whole point of ROTJ is to show he is conflicted, that is the movie to show this. He didn't do that in ANH & ESB because he was just evil. When Anakin turned, he should have turned, and do it without Lucas keep showing that he is conflicted. We get to Mustafar and again Lucas shows him crying right before Padme shows up, WE GET IT, he's conflicted! Lucas was so afraid of showing Anakin as the monster like Vader in ANH & ESB, and they would love the character cause he was a bad ass and forget he was a person. Lucas has said repeatedly that people fell in love with Darth Vader the bad guy, and it was tough in the later movies to get them to see him differently that he was a tragic figure. So by hammering the point of him being conflicted, I feel he did a big disservice to the whole turn and him being Darth Vader in ROTS.

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CJedi72 posted:

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Let me ask you, this is the crucial scene of the whole PT, how does Lucas not have this whole scene planned out before even writing the trilogy? There are alot of small details that I'm sure he didn't plan, but this was a major plot point, and he was indecisive about how this should go on? Originally he was going to have Anakin next to Palps when Mace confronts him, but he nixed that. As I said, alot of people love this scene, but there are just as many who hate it.

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darth-sinister posted:

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He didn't want Anakin to stop him. He wanted Anakin to see that the Jedi will do whatever it takes to keep their power. That's why Palpatine attacks. He has to attack Mace to provoke the appropriate response. When Mace kicks him and puts him in a corner, he tells Palpatine that he is under arrest again. Palpatine needs to get Mace to change his mind about that, because faking that he's too weak will just get him arrested. He cannot have that. So he attacks him. When Mace successfully blocks his Lighting, that's when Palpatine adjusts his plan. His face changes, but he doesn't care. All that he cares about is doing this. Between putting all his anger and hate into attacking Mace and having it reflected back, Palpatine's face changes and he can feel it. So he shifts gears and fakes being weak.

You don't think once he realizes his face is getting fried, by just shooting one bolt of lightning at Mace would have the same effect? I mean come on, let me fry my face when I can have Anakin make the realization that Mace is going to kill me if I just shoot him for 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds. That was the only way Lucas could get Palps face to match up with ROTJ, so he put that part in. Again, I like the EU explanation better, because it atleast gives some negative of being consumed by the darkside for so long, and even though you are more powerful, you body and face begin to detoriate.

You tell me Darth Sinister, if Lucas did it the EU would you have liked it? Be Honest.





Well, Riddler wasn't in Batman 89. He was in Batman Forever and Batman 66. Palpatine is basically saying "Sucker!". He's the classic villian. The ones inspired by Flash Gordon, which has served as a partial inspiration for the Star Wars Saga. And he's laughing because he's enjoying himself. He's won. He's defeated the Jedi. Where Darth Malak, Darth Traya, Exar Kun, Darth Nilihus, Lord Kaan and Naga Sadow failed, he succeeded. [/i]


My bad, I meant the Joker played by Jack Nicolson from 1989, when he is hanging at the end of the movie cackling, The Emperor sounded the same way when he was hanging from the pod fighting Yoda. I loved Pre-Emperor in ROTS, calculating and cold, but once he became The Emperor, I thought he was too over the top, and didn't match ROTJ Emperor.




Lucas wants everyone understand why someone who is inheritently good would what he did. In fact, people still didn't get it even with the crying and what not. They thought it was revenge. It was just greed.

Well, I give the audience more credit than Lucas and yourself do. If he needed to keep hammering that point through the movie, then Lucas wasn't doing his job right. Look at ESB, and the cave scene, does Yoda say anything specific to Luke about his failure at the cave describing word for word what happened. No, he just says, "Remember your failure at the cave." And the audience is smart enough to figure out the scene, they don't need it spelled out to them.






Lucas had one idea. He went with it. His friends told him that he should change it, because we don't see his indecision. He did what they suggested. He saw that it was there originally. Speilberg told him to change it. It wasn't good enough. This is the man who is not only Lucas' friend, but a much more traditional director. Someone who does well with character pieces. If he thought it wasn't there, then that should tell you something. Lucas had to improve the scene. Unlike Coppola, Lucas writes his story and then makes changes after filming, while he is editing. He makes changes based on the rough cut. Whereas Coppola will have the script and make several revisions, before filming. That's just how Lucas is.

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JohnWesleyDowney posted:

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A couple of things on the making of Empire. Yes it went over budget, yes it was late. But this was the result of frequent ILM delays - not the actors or director.

That's not at all accurate. Filming on Empire began on March 5th, 1979 and ended on September 24th, 1979. That's 7 months of principal photography and that work has nothing to do with ILM
which was a separate unit operating on the other side of the planet. There were 64 sets on Empire, that is a staggeringly huge film production. The stunts, physical effects on set,
blue screen work, the complex scenes of shooting Yoda with all the puppeteers helping Frank Oz, and the grueling location work in Norway all contributed to Kersh taking much, much longer than originally planned. That's perfectly understandable. His experience had been in making much smaller, character-driven films...he had never made an epic film before.

The movie debuted in May 1980, just as planned.
But the shooting went WAY over schedule, way late.

An excellent book by the way is Alan Arnold's Once Upon a Galaxy, The Making of the Empire Strikes Back.

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CJedi72 posted:

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You don't think once he realizes his face is getting fried, by just shooting one bolt of lightning at Mace would have the same effect? I mean come on, let me fry my face when I can have Anakin make the realization that Mace is going to kill me if I just shoot him for 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds. That was the only way Lucas could get Palps face to match up with ROTJ, so he put that part in. Again, I like the EU explanation better, because it atleast gives some negative of being consumed by the darkside for so long, and even though you are more powerful, you body and face begin to detoriate.

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CJedi72 posted:

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You tell me Darth Sinister, if Lucas did it the EU would you have liked it? Be Honest.

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CJedi72 posted:

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My bad, I meant the Joker played by Jack Nicolson from 1989, when he is hanging at the end of the movie cackling, The Emperor sounded the same way when he was hanging from the pod fighting Yoda. I loved Pre-Emperor in ROTS, calculating and cold, but once he became The Emperor, I thought he was too over the top, and didn't match ROTJ Emperor.

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CJedi72 posted:

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Well, I give the audience more credit than Lucas and yourself do. If he needed to keep hammering that point through the movie, then Lucas wasn't doing his job right. Look at ESB, and the cave scene, does Yoda say anything specific to Luke about his failure at the cave describing word for word what happened. No, he just says, "Remember your failure at the cave." And the audience is smart enough to figure out the scene, they don't need it spelled out to them.

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CJedi72 posted:

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I'll turn it around on you guys, I thought these movies were Lucas's visions, and he makes them the way he wants to?

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