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Topic:
The Game Designers Guild
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Arias-Vynar
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/5 1:19am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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How about someone finally makes a good Mandalorian RPG?
-----signature-----
~ Memorable Quotes From Master Yoda ~
"Agree with you the council does. Your apprentice Skywalker will be."
"If into the security recordings you go, only pain will you find."
"When 900 years you reach, look as good, you will not."
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LightWarden
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
8/5 10:01am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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It may have something to do with how fannish the Fandalorians get.
-----signature-----
CDG Guild Master
Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die
The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS!
It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg.
TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Imperial_Hammer
Title: Manager:
• SWRPF
• NSWRPF
• RPR
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
8/5 11:24pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
- Date Edited:
8/5 11:26pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Imperial_Hammer
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Huh!
I'm surprised I didn't post one of my "We're moving on" posts here yet...
Well then, in any case, since (I think!) I'm caught up everywhere on the boards, we're moving on!
And rather than doing it now, I will be fair and give the heads up...
Get your last posts in on Xan's game!!!
Tomorrow night, we'll go to discussing "newbie games" and the merits/perils of designing such games.
-I_H
-----signature-----
Guildmaster of the GDG
*Now looking for a new RPF Adoptee*
The Jedi Way is something found within, not in the dead walls of any Order
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DarthCemeroX
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
8/6 7:21pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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In my anything but humbled opinion I think alot of newb games are really creative or really suck. There's no in between really. Sure alot of them don't handle it the way older and more experienced users do. But alot of good games have bee launched by noobz... However as i know best, newbie rpgs can be death traps, or you could be walking right into a cliche (Jedi vs sith)
-----signature-----
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/183956 pygmy guru ftw "The spectator believes what they see... the artist sees what the believe" http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/184494
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Imperial_Hammer
Title: Manager:
• SWRPF
• NSWRPF
• RPR
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
8/7 12:56am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
- Date Edited:
8/7 12:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Imperial_Hammer
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Alright, lets do this then...
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- Genre Discussion: Newbie Games
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*** Lets Talk About: Newbie Games ***
Alright so... I kinda feel like we talked about this before, but I dunno. I couldn't find anything...
Plus it might be a good thing to revisit...
So, to get people all on the same page here, when I say Newbie Games, I am referring to games created by newer users that may not tend to be the most polished, or tend to have relatively stereotypical storylines. These games typically (but not always) draw newer users exclusively.
I personally am very interested in these games because they seem to buck the normal trends we hold as ideal here. They don't have well designed first posts or creative plots. And while certainly they day the price for this, some actually survive and thrive! Or at the very least do better than other games that were designed in a "better" and/or more "professional style"
There are two issues I'd like to see discussed here...
1.) Do Newbie Games have a legitimate and respectable role here in the RPing Community?
More specifically, do these types of games serve a sort of integration purpose? Like a gateway perhaps into more "professional" roleplaying? A less intimidating arena to learn the ropes and become better?
2.) Why do some newbie games get off the ground, and others don't? Is there something we can learn from these games in making games that are more attractive to beginning RPers?
I'm thinking there has to be something there. I suspect its in the GMing, but perhaps there are certain design elements that make games more user friendly? If there is nothing, at the very least, it is good to discuss what can be done to be more welcoming to new users in games.
One More Thing: Discussions about new users historically can get a little heated, as there exists both a strong stigma against and a culture of criticism towards amateur RPing and Gming. I urge this group to keep things civil, constructive, and friendly. 
Lets see what you alls got to say!
-I_H
-----signature-----
Guildmaster of the GDG
*Now looking for a new RPF Adoptee*
The Jedi Way is something found within, not in the dead walls of any Order
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Penguinator-176
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
8/7 1:21am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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If they don't improve, I don't like them. If they improve, I like them. I often refer to my dealings with younger cousins (not siblings, thankfully!) when it comes to dealing with stubborn newbs. Simplify, explain the problem, provide a solution. They don't change, try again. I sometimes get suckered into giving them a third chance, but for the most part, I usually wind up ignoring the problematic behaviour or just calling them out on it and not mincing words. This is how I deal with most newbies in life, I should explain, as the rest of the RPF seems to beat me to the punch most times.
Oh, and Imp...*points to sig*
-----signature-----
"Good god, Peng's a mentat!" ~darthramza
GDG
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darthramza
Registered:
Jul '08
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Date Posted:
8/7 2:53am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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If there's more to joining than simply putting it in your sig, could someone let me know? Thank you!
I decided to join and post my thoughts, seeing as I am 1. A newb and 2. In a newbie game.
Okay, then:
1. I can say that I have personally found the game I am in to be a "less intimidating arena" for practice. While I have roleplayed on other forums prior to joining this one, I haven't had much experience with roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. Whereas when I post in the non-newbie game I participate in I'm constantly thinking about if my post is "acceptable" or not, or worried about sounding potentially discourteous to a veteran player and/or the GM, in the newbie game I feel a lot more relaxed and am able to experiment with the limits of my character's potential. This, in turn, allows me to work on my actual storytelling ability, in preparation for (hopefully) one day starting my own game. In addition, the GM and other players seem a bit more approachable in a newbie game, though perhaps this is merely a psychological issue. Regardless, I think that, abortive or not, they're a great way to get some roleplaying experience, and I believe that is the litmus test of "legitimate". "Respectable," I think, is more of a game-to-game basis than simply a basic preconception. Even a bare-bones sandbox could theoretically become a very respectable game, provided the players and GM provide a certain consistent quality.
2. While I haven't been around too long, I have seen a couple of newbie games fall by the wayside, so I guess this is more just what I've seen:
- The GM needs to sound professional, or at least like he wants to and is willing to effectively work towards "professionalism," which I suppose I'll operationally define as: Good grammar, spelling, and all that jazz; enthusiasm; willingness to work with players; and active participation.
- It's got to be able to attract people's attention. While cliches can and do work, I think even a small twist makes things more interesting. Most RPers, I think, don't simply want to rehash the films. This is a bit harder to define, but I guess what I'm saying is a newbie should look at the game and say "Hey, I want to play this". Again, part of it leads back to my earlier point on "professionalism".
- The players. Even if they're newbs, they'll post in a game they want to play. If everyone wants to keep playing, it normally keeps going (Instances of DnD games going to heck and a hand-basket regardless notwithstanding). Conversely, a game where player enthusiasm is low is doomed to die. And in a poorly-planned instance of circular reasoning, this relates back to my first two points.
I suppose that's basically my thoughts on the matter.
-----signature-----
"But, it was so artistically done."
Co-GM of When Galaxies Collide: A Major AU RPG
Physics is like the Force: It has two main fields of study and controls the flow of all things
Game Designer's Guild, Character Designer's Guild
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NickLitYouAFlame
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
8/7 7:59am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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Ham-slice! Check my bio, will you? I'm tired of being on the bottom list. Unfortunatly, I have nothing intelligent to add to this discussion.
-----signature-----
I don't know.
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DarthCemeroX
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
8/7 10:07am
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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Your first question was do Newbie games play a role in the rpf... YES~!!
It for one gets players accustomed to the method of play. Second bot older players and newer players learn from it. Maybe the new game has different play aspects that Older players aren't used to, if the old players are open and not stubborn, they can perhaprs integrate these new ways of GMing and general role playing.
This may be personal preference but from my experience, newbie games are much much looser. And frankly I enjoy a game that's not set in stone. I won't name names, but in my first months of playing I joined a game, the Gm was nice...but way too exacting.
I had edit a single post several times because he didn't like where I went with the story of my character. And it's pointless to play if the GM is going to have the story set in stone.
I don't mean to rag on people who have a plan, but why have players play if you're going to micromanaged every aspect of a game. Just like you can't control real life you can't control a game. Isn't that the point, making it as real of an experience as possible. I guess it's because most newbie games don't have a clear ending in sight, but they really shouldn't it should form as the story moves along. Set up what you have to to get things moving then allow it to grow.
In alot of newbie games there's more freedom. I personally enjoy being able to go places with a character that aren't expected.
I think newbie games are nessecary to have a functioning rpf, for the obvious reason if there weren't newbie games there'd be no progress.
-----signature-----
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/183956 pygmy guru ftw "The spectator believes what they see... the artist sees what the believe" http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/184494
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Penguinator-176
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
8/7 12:39pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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Some very good thoughts and points...
Cemero raises a good point about newbies in oldbie-type games: exacting GMs who want it to be just so. I think I'm guilty of that, but I'd also like to point out that it's not just newbie games that allow such freedom (and often that freedom is unplanned) - some GMs like to hold your hand the whole way, some give you training wheels and a set of rules until you can handle things on your own...it's a matter of finding what games work for you.
I also just realized that I have GMG, not GDG, in my sig...awkward! My bad!
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"Good god, Peng's a mentat!" ~darthramza
GDG
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DarthCemeroX
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
8/7 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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Yeah there are alot of oldbie games that are loose. But most of the newbie games, (since they aren't usually structured as well as others in certain casess) have a more open range for playing.
To be fair though, I haven't played a newbie game since I was one. But all the same I believe even older players can learn alot from newbie players as well as vica versa. As long as both sides aren't grumpy, this usually happens more with older players.
However, I have a very strong distaste for the newbies who will post a game on their first day, this often leads to very poor quality unless you've somehow absorbed the entire RPF's information.
I have seen some ver interesting games with setups like...
"So yeah, there aren't bad guys or good guys. We all just kinda let it flow, ummmm we want to (place obscure goal here) and um yeah."
Games without Character sheets, back story, a point. Those I do submit are very flawed, but needed, games.
-----signature-----
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/183956 pygmy guru ftw "The spectator believes what they see... the artist sees what the believe" http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/184494
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JohnHunter
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
8/7 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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Penguinator-176 posted:
"So what you're saying is, I can stop bullets."
"When you're ready, you won't have to."
"But, like, I could, if I wanted to."
"No. You won't have to."
"I'm just saying, if I wanted to stop bullets, I could do it, right?"
"No."
LMAO!!! 
-----signature-----
The poet who said, "No man is an island" ....Never knew me. An ode to China Monroe - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfvlV63NEY0 An ode to SelenaMeeka - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KswPvgTe24&feature=related Rest In Peace, Darth_venin, Dark Lord.
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Saintheart
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
8/7 6:58pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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I have seen some ver interesting games with setups like...
"So yeah, there aren't bad guys or good guys. We all just kinda let it flow, ummmm we want to (place obscure goal here) and um yeah."
Games without Character sheets, back story, a point. Those I do submit are very flawed, but needed, games.
There I would have to disagree with you. I understand the point of view that such games are needed because their spectacular epic fails teach their GMs how not to design games, but as a moderator of these forums part of my job is to keep players and GMs from having their time wasted by joining a game which one can tell at a glance has no reasonable chance of continuing. That's why you'll find threadlocks from me and Imperial_Hammer over games that don't meet the minimum standard, which is:
(a) A coherent story
(b) A Character sheet
(c) An enforceable set of rules.
If I see a game with a setup like the one you quoted, it would be locked. Period. I'm always open to restart it if the author makes some edits or changes it, but there hasn't been a moderator since before NaboosPrincess's time who was prepared to let a game like that run.
This may be personal preference but from my experience, newbie games are much much looser. And frankly I enjoy a game that's not set in stone. I won't name names, but in my first months of playing I joined a game, the Gm was nice...but way too exacting. I had edit a single post several times because he didn't like where I went with the story of my character. And it's pointless to play if the GM is going to have the story set in stone.
Based only on that testimony, I'd agree: that's going too far. Having said that I'd have to see the context of the entire conversation before I made a final judgment. But in principle, yes, a GM who's unprepared for adaptation is doing as much damage as a GM who simply lets the wheel go and allows his players to do all the driving.
I don't mean to rag on people who have a plan, but why have players play if you're going to micromanaged every aspect of a game. Just like you can't control real life you can't control a game. Isn't that the point, making it as real of an experience as possible. I guess it's because most newbie games don't have a clear ending in sight, but they really shouldn't it should form as the story moves along. Set up what you have to to get things moving then allow it to grow.
To which the answer is: nice idea in theory, extremely rare in practice, and even then mostly because the GM has had months or years on these boards and has a player base of experienced character players who have an interest in the virtual people they play. I also disagree that you can't control a game just as you can't control real life: the point of a game is that it is at its heart a story, whereas real life has no plot-driven narrative. You need a clear idea of where you want your story to go, because generally speaking players don't or won't.
Still, the fundamental principle, I think, is this: as the GM, a big part of your job is to entertain your players, or at least foster an environment where they're able to help entertain themselves.
Having said that, I do have something other than grouchy grognard grumblings to add to this matter, and that relates to an interesting phenomenon I'm experiencing. Without going into specifics, I'm getting a much bigger influx these days of new GMs who are seeking approval for their game concepts from me before posting them up. This is even the case where the game is relatively run-of-the-mill and well and truly fits within the guidelines for RPGs on these boards.
I have a suspicion the reason for this is the way I wrote up the introduction to the GM FAQ, which put the moderating policy first and foremost and then went on to describe the various suggestions for making and running a successful game. Whilst I'm very happy people seem to be reading the FAQ and even giving serious thought to their RPGs, is there some perception out there that the FAQ is too harsh or sets up a very intimidating image for the RPF? If so, I'd like to know, and I'd like to know now so I can fix it or rephrase it.
-----signature-----
Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife.
Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007
Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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DarthXan318
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
8/7 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
- Date Edited:
8/7 7:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthXan318
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I'm of two minds regarding newbie games.
The first is: if everyone is having fun, what is the harm? Bad RPing is IMHO when you're having fun at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment; even if the newbie game is (say) KotOR era Jedi vs Sith where everyone is playing a poorly disguised Revan clone, if everyone is enjoying themselves, that's still a good thing. More power to them.
The second is: there is such a thing as bad RPing, and it's not something we should encourage. People who get used to creating Revan clones are going to have trouble when joining non-newbie games; people who get used to godmoding their way around NPCs because their newbie GM let them are going to protest when a more experienced GM balks. (By the way, I have never seen a GM, newbie or otherwise, force a player to edit purely for story reasons. I've seen railroading, yes, but forcing edits or voiding posts are almost always when the player is godmoding or has otherwise made an error in logic.)
Yes, newbie games can be wildly imaginative. Yes, older players can learn a lot from newbie games. The problem is usually that the imaginative ideas aren't followed through very much, and the lessons learnt from newbie games are generally What Not To Do, or at least that's been my experience.
As for the GM FAQ, I don't think it's too harsh, in fact, I think it doesn't cover nearly everything about GMing. (Then again, I'm a perfectionist.) Perhaps put a note up there that says you don't have to submit games for moderation approval?
-----signature-----
"In contrast, in Tide of Flames, the players post their attacks, make dice rolls, and then Saintheart tells them about their characters' childhoods." ~ LightWarden, on RPG combat. Away on a conference. Back Wednesday. 
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Saintheart
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
8/7 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: The Game Designers Guild
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As for the GM FAQ, I don't think it's too harsh, in fact, I think it doesn't cover nearly everything about GMing. (Then again, I'm a perfectionist.) Perhaps put a note up there that says you don't have to submit games for moderation approval?
I think that will be useful. The GM FAQ isn't intended to be an exhaustive guide to GMing. The current FAQ is a tradeoff between length and detail. Main reason for that was so I didn't scare people into tl;dr mode 
-----signature-----
Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife.
Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007
Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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